Fresh raw wild (or organic fed) salmon - where to buy?

[justin1]

We don't give our cat's supplements... Never saw any feline in nature sneek in their fish oil pill, that's kind of how I see it If you give them raw fish ocasionally they get their fish oil as well. We give them little raw sardines and sometimes salmon filet (parts we don't want to eat ourselves)
But some cats don't even like fish...

---that what i was thinking, but then i got lectured by "rawfeeding experts" at "rawcat" yahoo group. they say that non-organic animal produce - meats, organs, etc - because they are not naturally grass fed, they lack necessary vitamins, specially was a vitamin they get from a liver, etc which cats might not get enough of, as their natural prey "mouse" and "rat" have high concentration of that... So, they give fish meat oil as a supplement to cats to prevent deficiency... i asked about the whole fish..., nope, just oil...

---but there are much confusion, so i do not read them any more...

---btw: here is a page you can read about " fish body oil"...:

http://www.rawfedcats.org/naturesway.htm

"Another consideration to keep in mind is that the majority of farmed meats (many of which are grain fed, rather than pastured) are deficient in Omega 3 essential fatty acids. For this reason, unless your cat’s diet regularly includes items that are high in O 3’s, such as oily fleshed fish like salmon, menhaden, mackerel, sardines or grass fed meats, it’s important to provide these EFA’s by feeding a good quality fish body oil. (Not cod liver oil.)"

[Iris]

---that what i was thinking, but then i got lectured by "rawfeeding experts" at "rawcat" yahoo group. they say that non-organic animal produce - meats, organs, etc - because they are not naturally grass fed, they lack necessary vitamins, specially was a vitamin they get from a liver, etc which cats might not get enough of, as their natural prey "mouse" and "rat" have high concentration of that... So, they give fish meat oil as a supplement to cats to prevent deficiency... i asked about the whole fish..., nope, just oil...

---but there are much confusion, so i do not read them any more...

---btw: here is a page you can read about " fish body oil"...:

http://www.rawfedcats.org/naturesway.htm

"Another consideration to keep in mind is that the majority of farmed meats (many of which are grain fed, rather than pastured) are deficient in Omega 3 essential fatty acids. For this reason, unless your cat’s diet regularly includes items that are high in O 3’s, such as oily fleshed fish like salmon, menhaden, mackerel, sardines or grass fed meats, it’s important to provide these EFA’s by feeding a good quality fish body oil. (Not cod liver oil.)"

Do they happen to sell that stuff theirselves? Anyway, there are a lot of visions on how to feed your dog/cat/ferret/... Some even give their dogs vegetables because they think they eat the stomach content of their prey! Once I tried that, to see if he'd eat it...he didn't (duh!)
As far as I know, all fish oil is heavily processed, and made of fish not good enough for consumption. So it is not at all a healthy product in my opinion. I rather feed them real fish. This way they'll also get in the omega 3.
Another possibility is feeding them wild animals like hare, or (like many people do) mice etc (but that's expensive; they're sold in pet stores for reptiles) I think that would be much better then giving them some supplements.
In the beginning I was affraid I wasn't doing it right with my dogs diet, but after a while I got more confident he was doing fine. Same with the cats. They look great and I think they feel great too. They're not sick or anything, so it must be good this way, no?

[Iris]

Oh I forgot to say brains are also good sources of omega 3 fats. So If you would give them for example rabbit heads they'd get plenty of omega 3 fats as well
Furthermore, I'm not even sure anybody knows what our domesticated cats really need nutritient wise. Nobody seems to know for sure, and so there are different theories....

[justin1]

Furthermore, I'm not even sure anybody knows what our domesticated cats really need nutritient wise. Nobody seems to know for sure, and so there are different theories....

---restless mind in search of more theories to experience more trouble...

---yes, keep it simple approach is the way to go...

...must tell, i mentioned in rawcat forum that my kitty likes the taste of avocado, - it caused a major earth-quake in the forum... "do you want to kill your cat...? as it contains some undigestable substance... So, confusing... my cat is suicidal...?

---if and when i find fresh salmon she will certainly get to taste it..

---btw, do you know more of people keeping wai-style diet for years... is original ground the same...? any modifications of diet...?

---what has happened to Nathalie, the female model, co-author of the wai-team?

---is she over 50-y.o. now?

---how is she doing?

---i am really curious to know more..., i admire what she did... smart, wise and beautiful... - all in one...

/j.

[avo]

My dogs and kittens used to enjoy avocado immensely. Just as fondly as yolks, I'd say.

Raw meats, fish, bones, organs and eggs are the keys to healthy dogs and cats. Makes them strong like bull.

[Iris]

...must tell, i mentioned in rawcat forum that my kitty likes the taste of avocado, - it caused a major earth-quake in the forum... "do you want to kill your cat...? as it contains some undigestable substance... So, confusing... my cat is suicidal...?

very funny put, but a shame not more people know what a wonderfull food it realy is....

[justin1]

My dogs and kittens used to enjoy avocado immensely. Just as fondly as yolks, I'd say. Raw meats, fish, bones, organs and eggs are the keys to healthy dogs and cats. Makes them strong like bull.

...strong like bull and smart as wai...

hello avo!

how are you doing on wai-diet so far... and for how long...? any good advice and info to share...?

rawcat people, and barf-people warned me that fish is not a "natural" cat food... it gets them out of balance, caused by too much phosphor, making them acidic... or something... really strange, i grow up with knowledge that cat and fish are one...

hm ....confusing...

/justin1

[avo]

Haha, yes.

It is only: To think for yourself. But of course! Listen to what others have to say, some may be helpful and may guide you well, but ultimately the decision is yours, and yours alone. If you do something only because it is the way things are done, or what you have been told, then you are not alive. This I know, but not much else.

The Wai diet? I like it. Simple, nourishing. The last 3 years have been quite fun.

I really do hope you find that salmon. Have you tried calling the companies that produce it themselves? They should know who carries their product. Ask if they ship direct, or could suggest an appropriate method of obtaining such.

Cheers!

[fictor]

---fictor, my intention was not to upset you, ...hope you are ok...?

I am ok, thank you for asking

---let us keep our different views on the "germ"-theory as they are, and instead shift our focus on the common interests we might share...? OK?

First we must establish a shared understanding that the germs
and parasites are not the same thing. As I said, we can not live
without germs (bacteria), but we can live very well without parasites.
There might be certain cases, or certain types of parasites, that
humans can benefit from getting one of these parasites, but
in general parasites are not good for you.

---the main point was to explain that there are other reasons behind why fish resellers do not offer fresh raw wild or organic farmed fish in their stores, and the "germ"-theory they use is not the actual reason behind they not offering this choice, but economical... I have found it out by my persistent research, so they just gave up and told me the truth... If you do the same research in your country you may come to same finding and conclusion...

With salmon, it might actually be because of
parasites. Did you know that the japanese did not eat sushi or sashimi
made from salmon until modern times, when deep freezing was
comercially avaliable?

---anyway, now there are 2 other fish options left:

No, there are many more. Why limit your choice of fish to
only salmon, one of the most parasite laden fish we know of?
This applies very much in your case, since you will not eat frozen,
and can not get fresh organicly farmed (farmed=no parasites).

[RRM]

rawcat people, and barf-people warned me that fish is not a "natural" cat food... it gets them out of balance, caused by too much phosphor, making them acidic...

To bring that in perspective;
Phosphorus in mg / 100 gram meat (fish printed bold):

142 hake
176 haddock
179 catfish
184 cod
188 chicken leg
194 beef, muscles only
197 venison
198 perch
200 tuna
208 beef, shoulder
210 hare
212 chicken breast
214 ox heart
217 pigeon
217 mullet
233 anchovy
236 ox spleen
238 turkey, young animal
244 mackerel
245 pheasant
250 herring
258 sardine
266 salmon
300 coalfish
358 ox liver
366 ox brain

the majority of farmed meats (many of which are grain fed, rather than pastured) are deficient in Omega 3 essential fatty acids.

Says what scientific study?

[justin1]

Hello RRM, thank you for your attention and input.

---so, you personally think it is ok, to feed cat with a for example fresh raw salmon at times...? As, I might feed on it myself... Is there any limit considering a cat...?

---here is a page about complementing cats with " fish body oil"...:

http://www.rawfedcats.org/naturesway.htm

which says:
"Another consideration to keep in mind is that the majority of farmed meats (many of which are grain fed, rather than pastured) are deficient in Omega 3 essential fatty acids. For this reason, unless your cat’s diet regularly includes items that are high in O 3’s, such as oily fleshed fish like salmon, menhaden, mackerel, sardines or grass fed meats, it’s important to provide these EFA’s by feeding a good quality fish body oil. (Not cod liver oil.)"

---But, I am not really in to such details anymore (or should I?), as it can become very confusing and contradicting at times... making it even worse... I have been reading rawcat yahoo group posts and rising some questions there, but when they heard that my kitty tried some avocado, the hell broke loose, ...- do you want to kill your cat... etc etc some substance in avocado not good for animals they say...?

---RRM, I want to extend my gratitude and appreciation for all the work you have done and still keep on doing, thank you very much!

---the "WAI" world and "WAI" living rocks...!!!...

---Do you plan publishing any paperback books soon...?

---I hope you keep on answering peoples questions and mine, in shining your light upon our minds...


/Justin1

[justin1]

I have been reading rawcat yahoo group posts and rising some questions there, but when they heard that my kitty tried some avocado, the hell broke loose, ...- do you want to kill your cat... etc etc some substance in avocado not good for animals they say...?/Justin1

---just to add more precision to this thing, here is what they generally said:

"You may want to stop giving your cat avocado, as they are very toxic to cats. All parts of avocados contain a toxin known as persin. It causes GI irritation, vomiting, diarrhea, respiratory distress, congestion, pancreatitis, fluid accumulation around the tissues of the heart, and even death. Cats are attracted to avocados probably because of their oily texture, and because they're high in fat, which cats also like but again, should not be fed any avocado pieces (whole or mushed), or dips.

You can google "is avocado dangerous for cats?" and you will get more articles than you can possibly read (including articles written by vets) that attest to the toxicity of avocados to cats. There is also a list put together by Animal Poison Control that lists the most toxic foods for pets, and avocado is #2 on the list! Stop feeding your cat(s) avocado immediately, otherwise you could end up with a very sick, sick cat, or even worse."

---RRM, what is your thought reflection on this statement...?

---sorry, that it developed a bit out from main topic... but, still fish-cat-... /Justin1

[RRM]

so, you personally think it is ok, to feed cat with a for example fresh raw salmon at times

Sure.
Cats are quite specific when it comes to what they feel like eating, and what not (and when)
Just offer them a variety of foods, like raw fish, beef, chicken etc. and (s)he will let you know...

---here is a page about complementing cats with " fish body oil"...:

I actually meant scientific references, but let it go; research shows that fish contains the omega 3 fats that (s)he needs.

---Do you plan publishing any paperback books soon...?

No.
Thanks for the encouragement.

...that attest to the toxicity of avocados to cats.

Sure, that might be true. Cats are carnivores, so it doesnt seem unlikely to me at all.

[justin1]

just to be more precise, i search my records, and here are the arguments "against" whole fish feeding to a cat (not that that matters a lot...

---My question to rawcat: "Why not just give a fresh raw salmon? Isn't it more whole and balanced nutrition wise compared to concentrated fish oil...?"

---Answers from rawcat:

The only supplement you might need is fish oil (not fish liver oil, which is too high in vitamin A, but whole fish oil which is more balanced) for the omega fatty acids. Grainfed animals don't make the same kind of fat as free range ones, and since most meat available is grainfed, sometimes you might need to supplement with the fish oil (all fish swim, so they make the right kinds of fatty acids.

Cats may love fish, but they really didn't develop as a species eating fish, and it may not be all that good for them. Besides concerns about toxins and mercury (if it says pregnant women shouldn't eat this sort of fish more than once a week, I SURE wouldn't want to feed it to a sensitive little bitty cat more often!), I've become less and less willing to feed fish to cats except occasionally, because of possible links to thyroid problems, which are so common with cats today.

Salmon is pretty high on the fish food chain so it is going to have a higher toxin load than the little cold water fish. If it is farm raised salmon the food it has been fed, especially if it comes from China, just might have melamine in it.

Well, as I see it, you'd have to feed fish regularly, and fish isn't a particularly species appropriate diet for cats. I think land- and air-based proteins should dominate the menu.

Additionally, Omega 3 should be available from all the meats a cat eats, and would be if we could/would feed nothing but pastured, grassfed livestock and truly free-range poultry. Omega 3 is not limited by nature to salmon, sardines, herring, anchovies and mackerel; these fish are arguably easier to acquire than grassfed and free-range prey, and they are generally less expensive.

Seems to me that a generally species appropriate menu supplemented with a small amount of fish body oil upsets the balance less than feeding regular amounts of fish because that's where the oil originates.

The "best" source of Omega 3 would be the prey, any prey, all prey.

---Any comments...?

/JustinOne

[RRM]

as I see it, you'd have to feed fish regularly,

So, no problem!

and fish isn't a particularly species appropriate diet for cats.

Because?