beta-carbolines? goodies or baddies?

[abicahsoul]

Hi! Since I found out about this diet I am trying to understand a bit more. Which isn't easy, btw. I guess I don't have time to read all the articles but it is kind of not super-easy to find support that beta-carbolines are all bad I try to understand how they relate to depression and it is kind of easy to get the impression that they actually help against depression? but anyway.. Perhaps somebody here who has studied in depth can explain a bit?
Harmine which is a beta-carboline seem to perhaps or possibly have some positive effect on depression and also anti-cancer properties also, just for fun we can notice that it is flourescent and also seems to be present or at least to be of the same family as the psychoactive drugs psilocybin, ayahuasca and LSD so soon all depressive patiens will have a certain flourecent glow to them and walk around with purple sunglasses muttering about pink elephants? Which might explain why research on harmine is not exactly possible (allowed) in many countries..
Tyramine (a beta-carboline?) which seems to be a real baddie, especially for those of us with migraines, but not only those is to be found in aged cheese, cured n fermented food etc. BUT is also present in significant (or as I understand high) doses in dried/overripe fruit, avocadoes (shuck, there goes my idea of eating 2-4 avos a day to feel satisfaction..), and nuts (all nuts!!).. is that bad news??
and also it seems that some beta-carbolines are produced in the human body and is actually needed? *scratches head*
I am justs not really getting it. I had just accustomed myself to beta-carbolines being all the way baddies
My sources is the peer reviewed and veeery serious online source called wikipedia.. where you can find something about everything but which contains statements that aren't fully prooved or conclusively prooved.. but that nevertheless usually presents both some pros and cons..

[RRM]

it is kind of not super-easy to find support that beta-carbolines are all bad

Well, thats correct.
There are good, bad and everything-in-between beta-carbolines.

it is kind of easy to get the impression that they actually help against depression?

Sure, there are effective beta-carboline based drugs to fight the symptoms of depressions.

Harmine which is a beta-carboline seem to perhaps or possibly have some positive effect on depression and also anti-cancer properties

Lots of substances have anti cancer properties, but that doesnt make them good substances.
Cancer is human cells gone astray. Anti cancer properties also means anti human cells properties.
The most effective anti cancer drugs have toxic properties.

Tyramine (a beta-carboline?)

Its an amine, derived from the amino acids tyrosine and phenylalanine.

which seems to be a real baddie, especially for those of us with migraines

Its a baddy for those who are allergic to it.
If not, its harmless and a releasing agent for hormones and neurotransmitters.
Normally, the body can perfectly deal with it.

it seems that some beta-carbolines are produced in the human body and is actually needed?

Yes, there are lots of different beta-carbolines.

[abicahsoul]

Good. Interesting, that one's own mind makes some conclusions, that anti-cancer=good for you (even if you don't have cancer), it is almost like going on chemotherapy as a preventive measure, which is more obviously a dumb idea. (even if this simile is a bit exaggerated). Hm, it is funny media blows up: this or that is anticarcerogenic, and immediately I go out and try to eat more of that..

[panacea]

are there any, are there a lot? how do we find out?

[panacea]

just found a post of RRM saying beta carbolines are good, bad, and inbetween... why are beta carbolines in fruits, if there are any (or a lot), okay for us, or not gonna be a problem, but beta carbolines in cooked food is bad???

[dime]

It's not that beta-carbolines in cooked food are so different/worse than those occurring naturally in food or in your body, but that heating results in much more beta-carbolines in the food. And since even a small amount of beta-carbolines is quite effective in the brain, you want to avoid the extra you get when cooking. At least that's how I understood it from wiki and http://www.13.waisays.com/ADHD.htm

[RRM]

beta-carbolines in fruit? are there any, are there a lot? how do we find out?

Beta-carboline alkaloids (mostly toxic) are found in many plants (and seeds) as part of their defense system (and as 'messenger substances' in animals).
The beta-carbolines in fruits (orange, banana, tomato, kiwi etc) seem to serve as anti-oxidants. Herraiz T et al
As a general rule, beta-carboline alkaloids taste bitter.

why are beta carbolines in fruits, if there are any (or a lot), okay for us, or not gonna be a problem, but beta carbolines in cooked food is bad???

When we consume raw animal food, you will ingest some beta-carbolines that animals naturally contain as messenger substances,
but that number is very small (as is the amount of hormones in animals).
When you consume fruits, you will ingest beta-carbolines that act as antioxidants.
When we cook food, all kinds of beta-carbolines originate, including toxic ones, which are the bad ones.

[djkvan]

As per wiki:

β-Carboline alkaloids are widespread in plants and animals, and frequently act as monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI). As components of the liana Banisteriopsis caapi, the β-carbolines harmine, harmaline, and tetrahydroharmine play a pivotal role in the pharmacology of the indigenous hallucinogenic drug ayahuasca by preventing the breakdown of dimethyltryptamine in the gut by inhibiting monoamine oxidase, thus making it psychoactive upon oral administration. Some β-carbolines, notably tryptoline and pinoline, are formed naturally in the human body. The latter is implicated along with melatonin in the role of the pineal gland in regulating the sleep-wake cycle.[citation needed] The β-carboline can link to cerebral benzodiazepine receptors and induce inverse agonist effect.

From what I have seen they are increased only when foods are deeply cooked and fried. So boiled and rare-cooked meats are a good way to go. I also enjoy raw.

[RRM]

From what I have seen they are increased only when foods are deeply cooked and fried. So boiled and rare-cooked meats are a good way to go.

What gave you that impression???

[djkvan]

Sorry for the late response, I didn't notice that you had replied.

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11103270

The presence of tetrahydro-beta-carbolines and beta-carbolines was studied in raw, cooked and smoked fish and meat. 1,2,3,4-Tetrahydro-beta-carboline-3-carboxylic acid (THCA) usually was the major beta-carboline found, whereas 1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline-3-carboxylic acid (MTCA) appeared in smoked and 'well done' cooked samples. THCA was detected in raw fish (nd-2.52 micrograms/g), cooked fish (nd-6.43 micrograms/g), cooked meats (nd-0.036 microgram/g), smoked fish (0.19-0.67 microgram/g) and smoked meats (0.02-1.1 micrograms/g). Smoked and cooked samples contained higher amounts of THCA and MTCA than raw products. Deep cooking of fish and meat increased both THCA and MTCA, and this was accompanied by the formation of more beta-carbolines, norharman and harman. The tetrahydro-beta-carbolines THCA and MTCA were chemical precursors of the co-mutagens norharman and harman during cooking. These and previous results confirm that foods are an important source of beta-carbolines in humans.

So... from what I have seen, or read if you will.

[panacea]

How does that study show that boiling and rare-cooking meats doesn't increase beta-carbolines?

[djkvan]

It doesn't. My bad.