Novidez's Journey - From non-Wai to Wai

[Novidez]

No, there are many fruits not on the calculator while perfectly ok to consume.

Nice!

Now I have a kitchen full with fruits: papayas, melons, pears, apples, plums, kiwis, bananas, avocados and oranges. I mean...

ha ha

I also found that I have grapes and tomatoes in the pantry (because the kitchen doesn't have more space). I mean, it's so much more expensive this way... But well, I just have to thank them.

[Novidez]

I must admit that reading that motivates me even more. But... How can you be so sure? I mean, reading JeffC journal it seems that it took him +/- 4 years to conclude that the Wai Diet wasn't good for him (or was it...?). And when I read this...

Age 24: Found Wai and adopted it because of its scientific approach.
I experimented with other foods but, in general, my diet was:
-Orange juice + olive oil + sugar
-Dates + coconut oil
-Salmon + tomato
-Egg yolks.
3000 calories. Macros were 52% carb, 43% fat, 5% protein.
Age 27: First sign of problems: tooth decay. I also noticed that I had to slightly increase the number of calories to maintain, but I (incorrectly) thought it was because I'm so active.
Age 29: By this time my caloric needs were rising above 4000. Also experienced depression and brain fog.

I start wondering, and, of course, always for the worst

you are on a year(s) long journey to discover what works
maybe it will be one year, or more years than your lifespan allow..

Now I am remembering your words Panacea ahah

(and good practise)

When you say that, are you saying that is here (on the Wai Diet that I will succeed) or you also including all other possible ways?

(Damn it, I always describe myself as a patient person. But regarding health, it seems that all (or none) patience flies away... I don't understand this necessity of mine to be completely sure that this is the right path, seriously)

[RRM]

How can you be so sure?

I am sure that good practise will yield results, because I have seen too many success stories.

I mean, reading JeffC journal it seems that it took him +/- 4 years to conclude that the Wai Diet wasn't good for him (or was it...?).

That is the question, indeed.
On the one hand it may be hard to judge individuals by what they post, but on the other hand one can discern some of one's personality from a long series of posts. And this diet plan requires consistency, which requires a certain mindset, and not everybody is willing to adapt such a mindset.
Above all, this is very much a mental thing; are you willing to stay methodologically focussed?
That is what succes is about.

are you saying that is here (on the Wai Diet that I will succeed) or you also including all other possible ways?

At least you can find out here what works for you.

(Damn it, I always describe myself as a patient person. But regarding health, it seems that all (or none) patience flies away... I don't understand this necessity of mine to be completely sure that this is the right path, seriously)

For me it is quite simple:
For optimal health you need all required nutrients and the least amounts of food constituents that hinder optimal digestion and/or have medicinal properties. The food also needs to contain the least amount of toxins that originate due to cooking.
Thus give your body everything it needs as pure nutrients, and as little of all that what may interfere.
Your body has remarkable recovery capacities, but needs to be supported, and not bothered.
The simplicity is clarifying, imo.

[Novidez]

Sunday, April 3, 2016

Weight: 70.8 Kg (+0.2 Kg)

10:30 Wake Up
11:30 Bowel Movement - it was more more brown, probably because I was eating more variety and drinking less OJ
14:00 250g Honeydew Melon + 3 Tomatoes (Medium) + 1 Cucumber + 15 Hazelnut
19:00 1 Pear, 1 Apple, 1 Plum, 1 Avocado, 1 Banana - it was unripe. Its skin tricked me
21:00 1 Apple, 1L OJ + 6 tbsp. Sugar + 4 tbsp. OO
23:00 0.5L OJ + 3 tbsp. Sugar + 2 tbsp. OO, 125g Raw Salmon, 5 Egg Yolks, 3 Brazil Nut*
3:00 1L OJ + 6 tbsp. Sugar
4:00-13:00 Sleeping

Energy: 4198 kcal
Protein: 73.7 g
Carbs: 609.2 g
Fat: 181 g

---\\---

- 5 pimples appeared: another two pimples in the middle of my back now; two smaller ones on my right gluteus and one on my right eyebrow. Seriously...? :/
- That moment when I have so many fruits in my kitchen, but I just want to drink my simple OJ . It seems that I crave it now

[Novidez]

I am sure that good practise will yield results, because I have seen too many success stories.

I will make you see another one

That is the question, indeed.
On the one hand it may be hard to judge individuals by what they post, but on the other hand one can discern some of one's personality from a long series of posts. And this diet plan requires consistency, which requires a certain mindset, and not everybody is willing to adapt such a mindset.
That is what succes is about.

I am already struggling sometimes... But, it's not with myself alone, but from what I absorb outside...

Above all, this is very much a mental thing; are you willing to stay methodologically focussed?

Despite all my questions, all my fears, the truth is that I am willing to do everything. Well, that's why I am still here . But could you be more specific by what you meant with staying methodologically focussed? Because not only mindset is necessary, practise and habits are important here I suppose.

At least you can find out here what works for you.

For me it is quite simple:
For optimal health you need all required nutrients and the least amounts of food constituents that hinder optimal digestion and/or have medicinal properties. The food also needs to contain the least amount of toxins that originate due to cooking.
Thus give your body everything it needs as pure nutrients, and as little of all that what may interfere.
Your body has remarkable recovery capacities, but needs to be supported, and not bothered.
The simplicity is clarifying, imo.

It is just a learning period. Please try to enjoy it, as it will bring you a lot.

I actually thought about this today and, ironically, reading all these sentences from you together... I don't know. I must be honest with you: I'm feeling great each day it passes. But I am always afraid which doesn't let me enjoy completely something. I mean, fear sometimes is good because makes us move and take action, but when it's unnecessary it is only a burden, a bag of stones that we carry on our backs. Also, I have this attitude of not wanting to dream too high to not fall later. So instead of enjoying, yeah, I am always bothering (in this case with stress, worry) my body.

Did you feel the same when you started this journey of what was the best for you? Did you also feared sometimes?

[RRM]

could you be more specific by what you meant with staying methodologically focussed?

Ok.
Step 1: can you subscribe to the notion that our body just needs all nutrients nad as little of all that what may interfere?
If the answer is yes, then stay with that answer.
From now on we just need to make that happen, without questioning that notion again.
So, we go to step 2:
Submit your version of the diet to the calculator, so that you know for sure you are not lacking any nutrient.
Then we will proceed.

instead of enjoying, yeah, I am always bothering (in this case with stress, worry) my body.

Once you see the results, the worrying will fade away, i think

Did you feel the same when you started this journey of what was the best for you? Did you also feared sometimes?

No, i just started, trusting that a diet of fruits and animal food could not do too much harm.
To make sure, then i started focussing on researching the one nutrient that seemed to be lacking: calcium

[Novidez]

Monday, April 4, 2016

Weight: 71.2 Kg (+0.4 Kg)

13:00 Wake Up
19:00 0.5L OJ + 3 tbsp. Sugar, 1 Plum
21:00-22:00 1L OJ + 6 tbsp. Sugar + 4 tbsp. OO, 5 Brazil Nut*
23:00 1 Melon (Honeydew), 125g Raw Salmon, 8 Egg Yolks
0:00-2:00 1.5L OJ + 6 tbsp. Sugar + 2 tbsp. OO
3-30, 4?, 5? - 12:30 Sleeping

Energy: 3934 kcal
Protein: 77.4 g
Carbs: 605.7 g
Fat: 145.9 g


---\\---


Tuesday, April 5, 2016

Weight: 71.5 Kg (+0.3 Kg)

12:30 Wake Up
16:30-19:00 1.5L OJ + 9 tbsp. Sugar + 6 tbsp. OO, 1 Plum, 150g Grapes
19:30 7 Egg Yolks, 125g Raw Salmon, 15 Hazelnuts
22:00-0:00 2 Bananas, 1 Avocado, 5 Egg Yolks, 1.5L OJ + 6 tbsp. Sugar
0:30-1?, 2?, 3? - 12:30 Sleeping

Energy: 4368 kcal
Protein: 89.7 g
Carbs: 608.1 g
Fat: 189.3 g


-----------\\------------


- 2, and with today, makes 3 days without any bowel movement

- After this weekend I am feeling quite down: I am feeling lethargic, somehow depressed, experiencing insomnia, fatigue, laziness, with less energy overall and even more forgetful (a curious thing is that I can remain somehow focused on something - for example, as I am writing this - but then I easily forgot or I have to do great efforts to remember what I have done few seconds before).
I can't probably conclude anything at all regarding what I have eaten on the weekend... Well, actually, just one thing for sure: my bowels got really disturbed.

- Things that maybe I should have mention:
-> I've twisted my foot on Friday;
-> I had a little discussion with my father on Saturday, this is, my cortisol levels where probably affected.

[Novidez]

Ok.
Step 1: can you subscribe to the notion that our body just needs all nutrients nad as little of all that what may interfere?

Yes, this is what makes more sense for me also. As you said "The simplicity is clarifying", and I have completely subscribed to that. Also re-reading this "At least you can find out here what works for you", I could perfectly say that both sentences complement each other.

So, we go to step 2:
Submit your version of the diet to the calculator, so that you know for sure you are not lacking any nutrient.
Then we will proceed.

Roger!
2 things first:
- I have been tracking my nutrient intake on Cronometer, just because on the Wai Calculator I think I got 'scared' with the name of some food species and the fact I couldn't distinguish them. But now, I just went to check it again, and it's not that complicate as I though . Do you think I should to start using the Wai Calculator instead?

- And second, now that you mentioned lack of nutrients, for example, about Zinc I was reading this thread http://www.waitalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=365, and you say something like

What is it that people tend to think that more is better?

I actually want to ask you the same question: What is it that people tend to think that more is better? Do you think this is majorly influenced by advertising and the constant warning of health problems on social media? Also, to promote the consumption of supplements? Or, in fact, they are right, and we are lacking some nutrients like Zinc, for instance?
I tried to read this: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc- ... ofessional and even this regarding Zn: http://www.nap.edu/read/10026/chapter/1 , but of course I couldn't understand most of the information that is said there
On the Wai Calculator the RDA for Zinc is tabled as 15.00mg. According to this, I am not consuming enough Zinc lately...
(I got Zinc, Zn.......................................10.36280mg .........15.00mg on my last day, for example. What do you think?)

The recommendations keep rising and rising. You should take a look at old recommendations. It used to be between 5 and 10 mg.
Then you need to keep in mind that the body readily adjusts the absorption rate multiple-fold. This means that there is no way you will lack zinc.
Zinc is a metal, with pro-oxidative properties.
The body is a system of balances? (too much of any metal is very bad for you)

If you dont want to consume (much) raw fish / meat; by consuming 10 egg yolks plus fruit juices, a handfull of Brazil nuts and a handfull of walnuts, for example, you may consume 11 mg zinc.

Meh, I 'liked' more reading what you have said first rather than the solution you gave to him after. Probably because it was something I wanted to hear/read, this is, to not worry about the (possible) lack of Zinc.

Once you see the results, the worrying will fade away, i think

Regarding my skin I am already seeing results. But I guess on internal (neuronal) levels, things are slower (well, except from sleep. I think it has been much better and satisfying since I got here - not waking in the middle of the night and waking up more energetic). And, of course, if I had also a little more mental resistance to the influences from the outside, I wouldn't be that much worried too...

No, i just started, trusting that a diet of fruits and animal food could not do too much harm.
To make sure, then i started focussing on researching the one nutrient that seemed to be lacking: calcium

I have no words for this... Just amazed and admiration, I could say.

P.S.: hermm , maybe I should start posting my issues on my Beginner Issues thread. Only as I was writing this, I remembered/noticed that I can just link what I have to question and post there instead of invading other topics like this. Sorry

[Aytundra]

The recommendations keep rising and rising. You should take a look at old recommendations. It used to be between 5 and 10 mg.
Then you need to keep in mind that the body readily adjusts the absorption rate multiple-fold. This means that there is no way you will lack zinc.
Zinc is a metal, with pro-oxidative properties.
The body is a system of balances? (too much of any metal is very bad for you)

True.
Zinc
10 mg Zinc/ day Male 13 - 15 years old
12 mg Zinc / day Male 16 - 18 years old
10 mg Zinc / day Male 19 - 35 years old
(Source: Berry G.S. & Gopaul H.S. (1982). Biology of Ourselves:"Table 15.6 Recommended daily nutrient intake. Nutrient of Some Common Foods, Department of Health and Welfare Canada. Revised 1975. Health and Welfare Canada." on pg.368. John Wiley & Sons Canada Limited. ISBN 0-471-79898-3.)

8 mg Zinc / day Male 9 - 13 years old
11 mg Zinc / day Male 14 - 18 years old
11 mg Zinc / day Male 19 - 30 years old
11 mg Zinc / day Male 31 - 50 years old
11 mg Zinc / day Male 51 - 70 years old
11 mg Zinc / day Male >70 years old
(Source: Thompson J., Manore M., and Sheeshka J. (2007). Nutrition: a functional approach:"Dietary Reference Intakes: RDA, AI. Adapted from the Dietary Reference Intakes series, National Academies Press; see http://www.nap.edu. on pg. H-4. Pearson Education Canada. ISBN 0-321-25294-2.)
------

15 mg Zinc / day FDA Men 11 - 14 years old
15 mg Zinc / day FDA Men 15 - 28 years old
15 mg Zinc / day FDA Men 19 - 24 years old
15 mg Zinc / day FDA Men 25 - 50 years old
15 mg Zinc / day FDA Men > 50 years old
(Source: Wai Calculator (2000-2011). "FDA, data" on website's calculator. Artists Cooperative Groove Union U.A.. Retrieved from the URL: http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-calculator.html)

5 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 1 - 2 years old
6 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 3 - 5 years old
6 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 6 - 8 years old
7 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 9 - 11 years old
8 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 12 - 14 years old
10 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 15 - 17 years old
11 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 18 - 29 years old
12 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 30 - 49 years old
11 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 50 - 69 years old
10 mg Zinc / day JSNFS Male 70 + years old
(Source: Wai Calculator (2000-2011). "JSNFS, data" on website's calculator. Artists Cooperative Groove Union U.A.. Retrieved from the URL: http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-calculator.html)

(I got Zinc, Zn.......................................10.36280mg .........15.00mg on my last day, for example. What do you think?)

If you lived in Canada in 1975 you look okay for Zinc.
If you lived in Canada in 2007 you might be 0.6372 mg short for that day.
If you lived in USA with Wai's Calculator of 2000-2011 FDA data, you might be 5 mg short for that day.
If you lived in Japan with Wai's Calculatro of 2000-2011 JSNFS data, you might be 0.6372 mg short for the day.

{Novidez, it depends on which country and year you live in. Have you consider building a time machine and owning an airplane to ensure you meet different RDAs?}

<<< I feel this post should move to a Zinc Thread or Novidez's Journey Thread >>>

[RRM]

I am feeling lethargic, somehow depressed, experiencing insomnia, fatigue, laziness, with less energy overall and even more forgetful]

This is because you are gaining weight rapidly.
You feel like crap because you consume way too much energy.
This hurts the system that controls your energy.

Tuesday, March 15, 2016
Weight: 68.6 Kg

Tuesday, March 22, 2016
Weight: 69.5 K

Tuesday, March 29, 2016
Weight: 70.4 Kg

Tuesday, April 5, 2016
Weight: 71.5 Kg

So, you are gaining about 1 kg per week...
That translates to overeating of about 9000 kcal per week, which is 1286 kcal per day.
Your reported daily energy intake over the last 3 weeks was 4232 kcal on average, so that your actual energy requirements may be about 2946 kcal per day.
I suggest to decrease you intake of oil and sugar.
I have read that on a typical day you may consume 15 tbsp (= about 45 teaspoons) of sugar and 6 tbsp of oil. That is about 1456 kcal.
If you reduce that to 1 tbsp of sugar and 1 tbsp of oil, you will no longer gain weight and feel much better.

[RRM]

I feel this post should move to a Zinc Thread or Novidez's Journey Thread

Done! (copied your last post to the Zinc thread, and moved all the Novidez-related posts to this thread)
Great work, Aytundra. Thank you.

[Novidez]

Glad I read this first, because these last days have not been easy for me. This is, as I said before, I withdraw Prozac doing a tapering of 2-week duration. The more I read on the Internet, the more I see stories of people that had a huge relapses after withdrawal, doing a fast tapering/cold-turkey. Actually, usually it's not really a relapse, it's just withdrawal symptoms. What I have been feeling really coincides with all the symptoms and the time of them to appear more intensely.

- Confusion, disorientation, forgetfulness, lethargy, sluggish
- I don't know if this is a symptom or not, but my left knee fails me sometimes, this is, my knee bends forward. It feels like I don't have strength for a moment (could be something like Joint Stiffness?)
- Insomnia, some nightmares
- Palpitations
- Libido Decreased

"How do I know it's withdrawal and not relapse?
Typically, in withdrawal symptoms such as melancholia, anxiety, and disorientation come in intense waves, which differentiates them from relapse of a psychological condition." (source: http://survivingantidepressants.org/ind ... -syndrome/)

I don't understand, but it seems most psychiatrists ignore the withdrawal symptoms as well as mine. (http://survivingantidepressants.org/ind ... ntry106638)

I have been reading what they say here (and in other sites too), and I was willing to do a reinstating (http://survivingantidepressants.org/ind ... -symptoms/), doing then a tapering of 10%, even if it takes me months (http://survivingantidepressants.org/ind ... my-dosage/).

I am feeling lethargic, somehow depressed, experiencing insomnia, fatigue, laziness, with less energy overall and even more forgetful]

This is because you are gaining weight rapidly.
You feel like crap because you consume way too much energy.
This hurts the system that controls your energy.

Tuesday, March 15, 2016
Weight: 68.6 Kg

Tuesday, March 22, 2016
Weight: 69.5 K

Tuesday, March 29, 2016
Weight: 70.4 Kg

Tuesday, April 5, 2016
Weight: 71.5 Kg

So, you are gaining about 1 kg per week...
That translates to overeating of about 9000 kcal per week, which is 1286 kcal per day.
Your reported daily energy intake over the last 3 weeks was 4232 kcal on average, so that your actual energy requirements may be about 2946 kcal per day.
I suggest to decrease you intake of oil and sugar.
I have read that on a typical day you may consume 15 tbsp (= about 45 teaspoons) of sugar and 6 tbsp of oil. That is about 1456 kcal.
If you reduce that to 1 tbsp of sugar and 1 tbsp of oil, you will no longer gain weight and feel much better.

Basically, the only reason I started taking more Sugar and Oil was because I wanted to gain some weight. Maybe it was too fast indeed... But, I did this post - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3735 - and this is what I ate before feeling that way - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3729&start=15#p42571. It seems that I ate around 2732 kcal before eating on an emergency. Since then I became I little traumatized to experience the same... And, actually, this day - viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3729&start=30#p42768 - I have experienced the same sensation, but it was, of course, less intense. Even though, this time, before compensating it seems that I had eaten a total of 3611 kcal already. I mean, I don't know what is my BMR, but it seems quite high, needing so much energy.

In conclusion, after all this, I really don't know what to do...
On one hand, It's not that I am quite happy about returning to Prozac, even if it is a lesser dose, but I was willing to do a test if my symptoms would reduce or not. It's curious that I felt these symptoms before but they were easy to deal with. Now, the problem is when they are coming back again, they are coming with much more intense compared to the first "waves".
However, I must say also, the weird part is that symptoms like forgetfulness, confusion, joint stiffness seemed that they are here to stay. And I have been feeling them gradually over time.
And one the other hand, you have a different approach here (which is an approach that I had already thought before, but the last thing I wanted to blame was what I am eating). Although, this is what has been the most difficult to me: to find what is the real causer. Curiously, of course, to help and trigger my confusion, the sugar can cause almost the same symptoms I have said before (that's why I was being annoying about it sometimes). But, I don't know... I don't if it is the excess(?) sugar that influences my neurological system or simply the fact that I am eating too much overall.

So, is it the sugar/excess of calories or are the withdrawal symptoms that are starting to 'attacking' me with all their weapons? Ah!, and of course, the other option: what if are them both the causer? How can I know? Where should I take action?

Btw RRM, have you ever explored the SSRIs and how they work? Just saying this, because if I had to trust to an opinion atm, I would trust yours more rather my psychiatrists

P.S.: There's so much that I want to read here in the forum and I have been missing... Seriously, even when I am writing this, I have to do a huge effort. When I start to read/doing something, I get really lazy at continuing it and I easily forgot it in seconds. If I was very strict on the approach of 'listen to my body', I would have to go to the state of 'do nothing' right away several times on a day, because I feel quite tired immediately. It bothers my head thinking so much deeply. But guess what: the world doesn't stop... And the worst is that in 1 week I will start the first round of exams in college. At this pace, I won't probably succeed at all. I am even considering to take some supplements or something like that...
And, I must apologize once again for the trouble I caused of not choosing the proper thread to talk about some specific thing accordingly. Really sorry.

[Novidez]

I was thinking about my weight over the night. It was quite troublesome to fall asleep...
I mean, it has been almost one month, and I was feeling great and motivated even when I was gaining some pounds daily. I don't know if it takes that much time to feel this way after gaining some kgs or if since I weight more, the more stress is for the body to gain more weight and therefore the symptoms...

What fred says here, I kinda identify myself with him.
However, as I remember well about my past, I was always that guy that eats ton and always stays lean. Everyone near me was always jealous, because I seemed like a eating machine and still didn't gain weight. So, it's something that had never changed, which I guess is perfectly normal to need so much calories to maintain my weight or even gain some weight.

Does gaining weight influence that much on my overall system?

[RRM]

I withdraw Prozac ... What I have been feeling really coincides with all the symptoms ...
- Confusion, disorientation, forgetfulness, lethargy, sluggish

It does, i agree.

I am feeling lethargic, somehow depressed, experiencing insomnia, fatigue, laziness, with less energy overall and even more forgetful]

This is because you are gaining weight rapidly.
...
So, you are gaining about 1 kg per week...
That translates to overeating of about 9000 kcal per week, which is 1286 kcal per day.
Your reported daily energy intake over the last 3 weeks was 4232 kcal on average, so that your actual energy requirements may be about 2946 kcal per day.

I don't know what is my BMR, but it seems quite high, needing so much energy.

Actually, we now know what your energy requirements are, thanks to your rapid weight gain.
Now we know that you need about 3000 kcal per day.

In conclusion, after all this, I really don't know what to do...

Reduce your energy intake to about 3000 kcal, because 4000 or more is way too much for you.
Overeating that much is not healthy.
It may cause the same symptoms as Prozac withdrawal.
Therefore, it is unwise to combine it with Prozac withdrawal.
With an adequte energy intake it is much easier to cope with your Prozac withdrawal symptoms.

I don't if it is the excess(?) sugar that influences my neurological system or simply the fact that I am eating too much overall.

Consuming adequate energy does not cause these symptoms.
Sugar is not bad, but consuming sugar and oil beyond your energy requirements is bad.

So, is it the sugar/excess of calories or are the withdrawal symptoms that are starting to 'attacking' me with all their weapons? Ah!, and of course, the other option: what if are them both the causer? How can I know? Where should I take action?

Yes, it is probably both.
So, stop with consuming too much energy.
Then you can cope with the withdrawal symptoms much better.

Btw RRM, have you ever explored the SSRIs and how they work?

Yes, when researching the metabolism of serotonin and dopamin in the body.

I am even considering to take some supplements or something like that...

You think it is smart to go from one drug to the next?

[Novidez]

Reduce your energy intake to about 3000 kcal, because 4000 or more is way too much for you.

Ok, I am going to do that. I think, like you said, I have to reduce to 1 tbsp of sugar and 1 tbsp of oil.

So, stop with consuming too much energy. Then you can cope with the withdrawal symptoms much better.

It was very tempting today to start with the 5mg Prozac. Of course, if I am able to get the same results without it, I'm all up for it. But it is gonna be for sure, a hard and challenging journey.

You think it is smart to go from one drug to the next?

Of course not! But comparing this week with the past weeks, I feel really terrible and without much hope on succeeding at college atm. I just want to get back the feelings of confidence, motivation, not these feelings I am having right now.

Btw, thank you for your promptly answers!