The self does not exist, you do not exist.

[waipete]

Who is controlling your body? Not you, what you actually are is a body, brain, thoughts and experience. We are all actually a product of our own environment and experiences, to understand this we have to see our human mind works and question do we really have any control at all?.

A thought do we have control of those? put simply, no we don't, thoughts just don't happen at will, if I tell you not to think about a cat, are you able to? from this we can see a glimmer of no control of thought but yet that can be dismissed easily but really it's an insight that there is no self and no controller.
The mother exercise - Now think about someone really close to you, your mom perhaps, I feel immediately warm and loving and I smile, something similar probably happens to you. You see right there the thought of your dear one made you produce feelings and perhaps caused you to smile, did you choose to have those feelings, that smile? No it was a reaction to a thought of our dear one, If we begin to think like this we begin finding the origins of our own thoughts, did we ever really have control, or our we just acting and reacting to any stimuli? We can argue and say "well I chose to think of my mother", but as I explained we already determined that the smile was a reaction to a feeling and the feeling was a reaction to a thought, now what I am trying to say is thought too is also a reaction of experience, your experience currently is reading letters on the screen, and somewhere earlier in the paragraph you reacted to the words, where it asked to you to think, but now we can say " I could have chosen NOT to think of my mother " that's fine too but there is a reason for that too, and it has nothing to do with a "you" in control w/e the reason is, it could be perhaps you don't believe what I'm saying and your reaction is to ignore because you don't think the exercise is helpful.. This is where we see a problem, where self gets in the way, at that point we gave up trying to find the origin of the smile and we fell back into the illusion of self and fail to actually see there is a reason why we do particular things, and if we keep tracing back and back we can never find the source of the first controlled action and we can see how the illusion of self can get in the way and block clear thinking. In this exercise we also see how everything is connected and we can learn better with a clearer mind. If anyone was interested please do reply sign up if you haven't.

[panacea]

yeah this is determinism more or less, which is the way the universe expresses itself to us (feedback). since everything happens in cause-effect (rational reasons), then it's like a 'closed loop' system, kind of like a supercomputer, with no supernatural etc etc. There are still some questions though such as, if there is no supernatural properties to reality then how did reality begin.. It's a shame so many people jump to the assumption of a god or gods or some big bang, while failing to see that these 'explanations' are nonexplained themselves, creating an unneeded and therefore 100% false conclusion (explaining the origin of something by using something that has no explained origin itself is not a true explanation no matter how many other people believe the same explanation).

So then we are left to conclude that our reality is deterministic, and indeed we have no free will, only the feeling of it (so now that you are hopefully aware of this, if you realize it to be true, you can enjoy the ride, although it wouldn't be a choice, it would be a response to a stimuli [this post])

trying to figure out the origin of this deterministic reality though, I don't think we can comprehend it yet.

[waipete]

Could it be that reality was always here, and time itself is an illusion?

I know in Buddhism they say self is an illusion but believing no-self is also another illusion and the only way to understand it is through direct experience. I think trying to find the origin is impossible and would be pointless to dwell into to.

[waipete]

Ok I want someone to do this experiment on this site, it's really mind blowing if you understand it. Read the first experiment http://liveweb.archive.org/http://ghost ... t-no1.html if you like it read on to experiment 2 and 3, and 4. I know the title says ghost virus but that's the name of the blogger, (General internet rule: don't ever download anything on the internet or click ok or accept to anything your unsure about.). I think this will help a lot in avoiding anxiety, stress, and help you be liberally independent in a very unorthodoxed way. For me I can relate my experience sorta to the matrix when neo wakes up.

[Oscar]

I think reality is quite real, as is the experience of time. Both can be different in other dimensions though, not to mention possible other planes of existence.

[waipete]

I think reality is quite real, as is the experience of time. Both can be different in other dimensions though, not to mention possible other planes of existence.

Reality is quite real, but time I think time is not real, because the past doesn't exist only in our minds and the future doesn't exist either, only the present exists. Time is relativity true for measurements of time and travel but ultimately it doesn't truly exist. Kinda like how money doesn't exist but only in our minds, but in reality it's just paper from a tree same thing as saying there is an I or me in reality we are just humans with advanced intelligence that think I exists. We only give these concepts of time, self, money, race, and nationality meaning which makes them seem real, try give a dog 100$ he might eat it, money doesn't exist to him.

I found this video "Neuroscience and Free Will" very interesting showing an experiment demonstrating we have no control over our thoughts, but our mind has already made decisions before we are consciously aware of it and perhaps when we become aware this "I" part is tricked into thinking it made the decision when the brain has already reacted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

[Oscar]

Well, I think you're now going into semantics, so in that case you might want to give me a definition of the time concept you're talking about, to avoid misunderstandings.

[panacea]

no matter what is actually real or unreal in our perspectives, the main thing to keep in mind is that there are some things which are functional and relate to each other and ourselves which are 'more real' - such as gravity, or time, even though these things remain to be fully understood, but we call these real because they relate to each and every human being.

When you have a case such as someone who has imaginary friends - the friends are actually real just as thoughts are real, inside the brain of the person imagining them. There are physical neuro-patterns firing, certain vibrations or frequencies of these patterns, etc, creating the visual illusion to this person that his friends are like other people.

However, since other people can't see these same exact imaginary friends, these imaginary friends are being misinterpreted by that person as what they really are, thoughts, not external stimuli. Therefore we can say this illusion or phenomenon of imaginary friend X and Y are less 'real' than time or gravity because it only relates to one observer (sentient being), even though this mirage does act like a friend, talk like a friend, and look like a friend, to this one person. It's a strange way to think of it but that is the only way we can derive what is 'most real' from what is 'barely real so that it's not considered real'. Imagine if there were no universal forces that related to all of us (such as physics), we would all be lost in our own imaginary perceptions of things that would be wildly different, so different we couldn't function cooperatively.

I always found that 'truth' was a matter of degree and scale rather than black and white, we only say things in black and white terms to be concise and clear in everyday life.

[waipete]

Well, I think you're now going into semantics, so in that case you might want to give me a definition of the time concept you're talking about, to avoid misunderstandings.

Yes I mean the measure of time, what we call a day or a year, both inaccurate measures but still very close. Time is very irrelevant as it puts in an imaginary barrier, we become obsessed with time, we live our lives around time. Time is a useful measurement but, often we are always watching the clock, wishing it can speed up or slow down, wishing work would be over already so I can go do something more exciting, we dislike our present and long for the better future which isn't even real, we begin to ignore what's real. The future\past can be such a exciting or even freighting place we relate them in our present lives and act out of fear and impatience. What I'm saying time is like a box, no not filled with chocolates, inside this box it's filled with rules and laws made by man, although all these rules and laws are true inside this vacuum like box, outside of it, it makes relatively no sense. We continue to stay trapped inside this box and restrict ourselves from whats currently happening and act from within the box, if we only know this box is there and see it's imaginary we become free of it's restrictions, restrictions of self, restrictions of religion, restrictions of nationality, of all concepts that are man made. Again it's all true but not the ultimate truth, a foot is 12 inches but it's only true inside the box of measurements, if you look around at nature there is no measurements at all.

no matter what is actually real or unreal in our perspectives, the main thing to keep in mind is that there are some things which are functional and relate to each other and ourselves which are 'more real' - such as gravity, or time, even though these things remain to be fully understood, but we call these real because they relate to each and every human being.

When you have a case such as someone who has imaginary friends - the friends are actually real just as thoughts are real, inside the brain of the person imagining them. There are physical neuro-patterns firing, certain vibrations or frequencies of these patterns, etc, creating the visual illusion to this person that his friends are like other people.

However, since other people can't see these same exact imaginary friends, these imaginary friends are being misinterpreted by that person as what they really are, thoughts, not external stimuli. Therefore we can say this illusion or phenomenon of imaginary friend X and Y are less 'real' than time or gravity because it only relates to one observer (sentient being), even though this mirage does act like a friend, talk like a friend, and look like a friend, to this one person. It's a strange way to think of it but that is the only way we can derive what is 'most real' from what is 'barely real so that it's not considered real'. Imagine if there were no universal forces that related to all of us (such as physics), we would all be lost in our own imaginary perceptions of things that would be wildly different, so different we couldn't function cooperatively.

I always found that 'truth' was a matter of degree and scale rather than black and white, we only say things in black and white terms to be concise and clear in everyday life.

The important thing is to distinguish ultimate truth ie. you drinking water and, relative truth ie water = h2o. Relative truth has a hard time explaining what water is but ultimate truth gives all that's necessary, furthermore relative truth is far more complicated, and ultimate truth is very basic. I have to disagree with you about things being in black in white terms, they are far from being clear, no words or concepts can tell you what water truly is, we only truly know when we experience the water by feeling the water. Relative truth is fine for functioning in modern society, but really we don't even need it, we are taught it is necessary to attain money, to go to school, have a wife and kids, study science, math, biology, follow laws, follow leaders, religion, idolize great artists and teachers, all for the sake of order and happiness, but what we really create some order happiness and some disorder suffering. We get caught following these beliefs and relative truths and miss out on the present, where ultimate truth lies. I think relying on relative truths complicates matters, causes uncertainty, and is a very loose foundation to live your life by.

/rant

[panacea]

our senses interpret what water feels like and looks like - it's not it's actual, whole, complete form. Our eyeballs can only see part of the water, our skin/tongue can only sense part of the water, etc. Since all people experience water in pretty much the same way, we can derive a partial description of what water is to us, humans, and how it interacts with other things we understand. The commonality is what makes this water 'real' or 'true' to us. Deriving what is actual reality is currently impossible because it's beyond the scope of our senses and machine sensors. Since everyone experiences time, it's one the most humanly real things there are. If you say time is not real, how can you say drinking water is truth? Without time, you can't drink water.

[panacea]

Reality is quite real, but time I think time is not real, because the past doesn't exist only in our minds and the future doesn't exist either, only the present exists.

Also this is not true - past events determine present and future events, present events give us descriptions of past events.

What you are doing is just word play, what you mean is that we only ponder present/future events in our minds - this act of thinking/pondering is not magical and is as deterministic as a squirrel collecting food for the coming winter (a future event affecting his present events and has affected his past events). Even if no animals existed to take into account future/past/present events, the past would still 'exist' since we can see that even without life on Earth, the stuff happened in order for life on Earth to appear and then think about these past events that made it happen (so in a sense, pondering about the past, as I'm doing right now, existed in the future a very a long time ago. for a moment it existed in the present, and now it's in the past..)

[waipete]

our senses interpret what water feels like and looks like - it's not it's actual, whole, complete form. Our eyeballs can only see part of the water, our skin/tongue can only sense part of the water, etc. Since all people experience water in pretty much the same way, we can derive a partial description of what water is to us, humans, and how it interacts with other things we understand. The commonality is what makes this water 'real' or 'true' to us. Deriving what is actual reality is currently impossible because it's beyond the scope of our senses and machine sensors. Since everyone experiences time, it's one the most humanly real things there are. If you say time is not real, how can you say drinking water is truth? Without time, you can't drink water.

When you have an experience in reality it's ultimate truth when we drink the water, bathe in it it's real, we are actually real everything is connected we are reality. Having more or less perception doesn't matter, just because someone goes blind it doesn't make their experiences less real. Time is not real, the word the concept is man made, it's actually still a mystery, everything is in a constant flux always changing, we can't just put it in a pretty package and call it time, then furthermore try to control it with schedules, calendars, birthday, w/e. Remember don't believe or disagree with what I say, just look through your direct exprience and tell me where time is, tell me where self is, reality doesn't follow the rules of time, time follows it, you follow time.

Reality is quite real, but time I think time is not real, because the past doesn't exist only in our minds and the future doesn't exist either, only the present exists.

Also this is not true - past events determine present and future events, present events give us descriptions of past events.

What you are doing is just word play, what you mean is that we only ponder present/future events in our minds - this act of thinking/pondering is not magical and is as deterministic as a squirrel collecting food for the coming winter (a future event affecting his present events and has affected his past events). Even if no animals existed to take into account future/past/present events, the past would still 'exist' since we can see that even without life on Earth, the stuff happened in order for life on Earth to appear and then think about these past events that made it happen (so in a sense, pondering about the past, as I'm doing right now, existed in the future a very a long time ago. for a moment it existed in the present, and now it's in the past..)

A squirrel gathering food is a reaction to hunger, he "knows" winter will come, this reaction causes him to gather food, instincts. If I see a rabid dog's leash break I instinctively run, but an idiot might not "know" any better and thinks the dog not a threat, does the idiot's future not exist because he wasn't able to predict it right? but the future exists for I who knew better? Everything is cause and effect, a child smiles at me, I smile back, I have a good day I give a bum a 5 dollars, he has enough to buy wiskey gets drunk and assaults a man. Point being this cause and effect is ever going and always going, this energy of such is never dying but goes through millions of transformations, the effect turns into the cause and becomes not real, only the effect is real. A thought about the future was the effect, just because I had a thought about the world ending tomorrow and I held a sign downtown saying "the sky is falling", does not make the future real, as for the past again a thought about the past can trigger an effect in the present, but still makes the past not real. Time is just a thought.

[panacea]

Lol man,
First you are saying that time exists we just can't call it time because we can't say where it is? Ok, the same is true for all the ultimate truths - drinking water or bathing in it isn't any different than being inside time. I can measure drinking water and bathing water and I can measure time. Both are just as real, if you want to say that time is less real then show the logic in it, don't just claim it. Thinking that because you can touch water, or put it inside your body, makes it true is assuming that you are actually touching the water - you arent. The atoms of your body and the water are never touching, instead, neurons are sending signals from your skin or tongue to your brain and you are manifesting the sensation in your brain. This is scientific fact I'm not making it up. Your brain is a generator that interprets the world around you from signals - not from physical clashing together of atoms themselves. You've never 'touched' anything in your life, just as you've never touched time. Likewise, you've never seen water either, all you have done is interpreted the light bouncing off of it, without 100% accuracy, with your eyeballs (part of your brain), which generates a picture inside your head. So don't tell me one fundamental thing in our reality is truth and one is not. Like I said, there is absolutely no difference from imaginary friends and real friends other than one is coming from external source, and being manifested in the normal way, and one is coming from internal imagination. That is why we can only determine what is 'real' by seeing what is external - and the things which are external affect all of us, not just one person.

For example, if someone says that icecubes cure cancer, then this is something that exists in that persons mind, but doesn't reflect to the cancer patients all around the world as true. Therefore, this icecube cure would be unreal. That's basically how we determine real/nonreal, but it gets a lot more complicated.

I agree with determinism, everything is cause and effect - that is why the future is certain, we just are not smart enough to know it in detail yet. So for the case you presented, whether someone knows what they would do in a future situation or not - the future is set in stone, because the cause-effect relationship is not manipulated by idiotic minds, free will, smart minds, or anything else.

There is no reason to say only the effect is real and the cause is not. This is like making up rules without a logic to it, and that is what makes it not a good theory. If you want the deterministic model - the causes are more important because they decide the effects which decide the next effects which decide the next effects..

And finally, time is not just a thought, just as water is not just a thought, we can measure both - and we cannot create both out of thin air with our thoughts. If time was just a thought, then I could create more by wishing it, just as I can create more visualizations in my head - which are true thoughts.

[waipete]

By me saying there is no time your still caught in the box of time, if i tell you time doesn't exist, you think the world stops, I'm simply saying time was never there, and also the rule of non-existence of time doesn't mean time stops, all the rules of time are also not there. In my mind nothing exists just only the universe, the point of my rants is not to prove nothing, but more to ease the mind of useless chatter that imprisons our mind, calm the mind, no need to explain existence just feel be alive. Act natural, don't riddle your mind with concepts because they are unimportant, trying to prove and disapprove; chasing, running away, causes mental anguish. Mind constantly racing for what? to prove to yourself or someone else? to feel important? concepts are not real, they only serve as a bridge to whats really real, we can leave the bridge once used. Seeing truth, without what you think truth is (or someone elses), not as you believe it, or wish or imagine it to be, you cannot capture truth, only see truth. Once you see your own direct truth without no attachments, life becomes more clear we are able to see faults and repair them with a clear unbiased mind. Liberate your mind, this was the whole purpose of the thread.

[panacea]

you're speaking in riddles and making no logical sense
the way things really are is far too abstract for a human mind to think about
that is why we come up with concepts - to make sense of things and manipulate them to help us with our lives, such as using the principles of physics to create new technologies

using zen, religion, or other shamanistic voodoo riddled thinking to come up with a Hakuna Matata philosophy is just another dead end stunt of human growth, it's unneccesary. Pure determinism is as peaceful of a mindset as you can achieve (there is no good or evil or right and wrong in such a system).

Since time represents the movement of events, if time isn't real means that these movements stop. Why rename this movement of events to something other than time? The label of time is accurately describing this just as well as any other name. If movement of events happen at all - there is a concept behind it, that's the fundamental law of determinism, that the movement of events has a cause, effect, and medium. Only with a medium can you differentiate between cause and effect.