amino acids.. to replace whey protein

[a77]

EDIT:
The info in this thread is OUTDATED
/EDIT

I recently figured out (on my own!) that drinking milk was a HUGE factor in my acne, causing deeper-lying annoying acne. I cut out milk completely and I have been very happy with the results. I have now noticed that whey protein may have a similar effect on my skin (although lesser than milk).

I read this from the the waisays site:

"If you MUST have supplementary protein, you should take liquid free amino acids. They are absolutely clean and you can choose the exact amino acids you need. They are easily absorbed and 100% utilized. (they just taste disgustingly and are expensive) If you want to know what amino acids in what rates you need (some supplements lack one or more of the essential ones, which makes them worthless), send me an email."

Could you please recommend some amino acids supplements I could take (and how much)? I am 5'10", 155lbs, very athletic, train 2 hours martial arts daily, and have a very high metabolism. Whey protein has helped in the past with muscle gain but if I can find a solution that does not cause acne, I would be eternally grateful to you for your advice!

Thank you in advance,
Alex

P.S. I've read the post on creatine in these forums.. but not sure what the effect of creatine is on acne... If anyone knows, let me know! I'm going to do my own experimentation on this as well.

[RRM]

Could you please recommend some amino acids supplements I could take (and how much)?

Since you are not that susceptible to acne (whey protein doesnt cause havoc in you), you may do very well on simple (powder) 'free' amino acids.
You can take up to 1,000 mg methionine maximally and 500 mg phenylalanine.
Why those 2 in this ratio?
On the average, thats the amino acids that we are lacking in that amount to be able to take full advantage of the protein already ingested. Virtually all dietary protein can only be utilized for (re)construction purposes for 50% max, due to the lack of methionine and phenylalanine in the remaining part.
Thats why that is very effective.

Besides that, you dont seem to be on the AcneSampleDiet (or are you?), so why dont you simply eat more raw salmon / tuna and/or raw egg yolks?
The protein quality of whey protein is quite low.

I've read the post on creatine in these forums.. but not sure what the effect of creatine is on acne... If anyone knows, let me know! I'm going to do my own experimentation on this as well.

Creatine increases muscle volume particularly by increasing water retention in the muscles. This may also increase water retention in the skin (as there will also be some additional creatine in the skin) and therefore acne.
I havent experimented with that though (Im not looking forward to getting acne again...)

[a77]

Since you are not that susceptible to acne (whey protein doesnt cause havoc in you), you may do very well on simple (powder) 'free' amino acids.

Well I guess it's all relative But yes, it's 1/10th as bad as when I drink a tall glass of milk daily which I used to think "did a body good".

You can take up to 1,000 mg methionine maximally and 500 mg phenylalanine.

OK. Can you suggest where I can get these supplements? Are these available in general nutrition stores? I don't know what the policy of this forum is.. but are you able to recommend products by namebrand?

Besides that, you dont seem to be on the AcneSampleDiet (or are you?), so why dont you simply eat more raw salmon / tuna and/or raw egg yolks?
The protein quality of whey protein is quite low.

No, I'm not. I probably would be on this diet if I hadn't figured out that milk was the main culprit! I would eat more raw salmon/tuna if it were more affordable. I suppose raw egg yolks would be an option.

I'm not an expert, and I'm not trying to be a bodybuilder, but as far as I know Whey is the cheapest way to increase your protein level by large amounts to help feed your muscles while attempting to build mass. Regarding the quality of whey protein, I don't know anything about that. I just know it's cheap and it has worked for me in the past - but it's not worth the acne for me.

Creatine increases muscle volume particularly by increasing water retention in the muscles. This may also increase water retention in the skin (as there will also be some additional creatine in the skin) and therefore acne.
I havent experimented with that though (Im not looking forward to getting acne again...)

The effects of creatine are great (at least for me). I will first try your suggestion on the powder free amino acids. Once I've done that for a few weeks without outbreaks, I may do an experiment with creatine (and report my results here.)

Thanks for your recommendations RRM, I will do some more research on methionine and phenylalanine. If anyone knows of a brandname product to suggest, please let me know!

Thanks!

[RRM]

You can take up to 1,000 mg methionine maximally and 500 mg phenylalanine.

OK. Can you suggest where I can get these supplements? Are these available in general nutrition stores? I don't know what the policy of this forum is.. but are you able to recommend products by namebrand?

Naming brands is ok, but it doesnt matter so much, as they are much the same. You can get them online and also in health food / nutrition stores. One particular form of methionine, S-adenosylmethionine ("SAMe") you can also get in pharmacies.
I have experimented with them and i always get a little bit of acne from amino acids in powdered form, but im extremely susceptible to acne, so maybe you will do fine.

I would eat more raw salmon/tuna if it were more affordable. I suppose raw egg yolks would be an option.

Not only do they supply you with all the required amino acids, they also supply you with loads of vitamins, minerals, good cholesterol and omega 3 fats.
If you would have to take all these through supplements, supplements are way more expensive!
So, actually, fish and egg yolks are cheaper...

Whey is the cheapest way to increase your protein level by large amounts to help feed your muscles while attempting to build mass.

Cheapest, and low quality, without vitamins, minerals and omega 3 fats.

The effects of creatine are great (at least for me). I will first try your suggestion on the powder free amino acids. Once I've done that for a few weeks without outbreaks, I may do an experiment with creatine (and report my results here.)

Please do so.

I will do some more research on methionine and phenylalanine.

Here you can check out the rationale behind taking methionine and phenylalanine specifically: http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/protein.htm (scroll down that page)
Here's a little more on methionine: http://www.vitaminstuff.com/methionine.html

[a77]

Thanks for the info, I'll ask at my local nutrition store for those power amino acids.

But it really sounds like they will likely cause some acne, maybe not as much as me drinking milk, but some nonetheless.

For completeness, what about "liquid free amino acids" which the article suggested?

[RRM]

Yes, those are absolutely 100% safe.
I used to take them when i did one of my experiments (3 months of only taking those liquid free amino acids, oil, sugar and apples; my skin was extremely clear and beautiful)
Unfortunately, I cant find them anymore.
I used to get them from a semi-professional bodybuilder, but I lost contact. I also forgot what brand they were. I though it was Solgar, but someone called them and the person he talked to said that they had never sold these, so im not sure anymore.
These came in glass capsules. The liquid was somewhat orange of color and tasted extremely nasty, but they worked perfectly well.

[Thomas]

What kind of improved gains can you expect from 1,000 mg methionine maximally and 500 mg phenylalanine?

[Thomas]

Also, why is it necessary to take methionine and phenylalanine in powdered 'free' form? Is there a problem in taking them in tablet/pill form (I dont have acne by the way)?

Thanks

[RRM]

What kind of improved gains can you expect from 1,000 mg methionine maximally and 500 mg phenylalanine?

When you consume little protein?
A lot.
Thats because you then may consume only 400 or 800 mg methionine daily, and then 1,000 mg extra means A LOT extra; as if you triple the consumption of salmon.

Also, why is it necessary to take methionine and phenylalanine in powdered 'free' form? Is there a problem in taking them in tablet/pill form (I dont have acne by the way)?

for acne, they need to be in liquid free form.
If you dont have acne, dont worry about the form.

[Rivera]

Me too, i would like to find some protein supplements.
I lift weights 2 times per week, I'm not trying to be huge, just get some normal sized muscles.
I don't want to eat meat or fish, just egg yolks. But i can't eat enough egg yolks per day to attain the level of protein needed for muscles gain.
I am 1,76m tall and my weight is 60 kgs
In my case, what do you recommend?

PS: acne is not a problem for me, just the quality of proteins/amino acids is important. Thanks.

[Melt]

Me too, i would like to find some protein supplements.
I lift weights 2 times per week, I'm not trying to be huge, just get some normal sized muscles.
I don't want to eat meat or fish, just egg yolks. But i can't eat enough egg yolks per day to attain the level of protein needed for muscles gain.
I am 1,76m tall and my weight is 60 kgs
In my case, what do you recommend?

PS: acne is not a problem for me, just the quality of proteins/amino acids is important. Thanks.

I want to know that too. I am taking Caprotein (http://www.mtcapra.com/caprotein.php) which doesnt give me breakout like soy proteins do. however i am hoping for a better alternative.

This is what i got from them.

It does not go through a formal heating process such as
pasteruization. We dry the protein powder using a refaractance window
dryer. You can learn more about this drying process by logging on our
website www.mtcapra.com and then going to the links section and
clicking on MCD Technology. This drying process is minimally invasive
for heat ans it uses a conduction and infrared heating process. In my
opinion, the protein in CaPROTEIN is partially undenatured ans does have
the ability to help the body in its production of glutathione.

[RRM]

Me too, i would like to find some protein supplements ....
I don't want to eat meat or fish, just egg yolks.

In that case my advice is to eat fish, really.
You will not find any supplement that is both effective and does not give you acne. (until some manufacturer makes that true free amino acid supplement)

PS: acne is not a problem for me, just the quality of proteins/amino acids is important.

In that case, methionine is a very effective supplement.
Indeed, what you need is high-quality proteins, so that no amino acid is lacking. Most effective is methionine as its the most scarse amino acid.
That is because we already eat a lot of protein daily that is incomplete (lacks methionine). Simply taking methionine (1 gram daily) makes a lot of already consumed protein available for construction purposes.
There are some threads about this.

[Iris]

You can take up to 1,000 mg methionine maximally and 500 mg phenylalanine.

RRM, do theses maximums apply to everyone, or does it differ per person?
My "little" brother does weightlifting, and he's quite muscular. He's 22, about 1,94 m and approx 95 kg (it differs slightly over time) At the moment he trains 3 times a week 1,5 hour (I know it's not the most effective way, but thats what he and his training buddy agreed upon, so try to convince him then) But anyway, he's used to take whey protein, and now those big red buckets no-xplode.....

[fictor]

If your brother does not suffer from acne, he can just eat eggyolks, raw fish and/or raw meat.

This supplies better protein than whey powder. And if he does not get acne, then he can eat enough to support muscle growth.

Also, the type of training you tell us he does, it could be much more effective
than the training regimen RRM suggests, depending on what exercises he does, how many sets and reps and so on.

The high rep, low weight isolating exercises program that RRM recommends, is not the most effective, but it does not strain the whole body, only the muscle targeted and does not cause a significant raise in hormone levels.

[Iris]

If your brother does not suffer from acne, he can just eat eggyolks, raw fish and/or raw meat.

This supplies better protein than whey powder. And if he does not get acne, then he can eat enough to support muscle growth.

Also, the type of training you tell us he does, it could be much more effective
than the training regimen RRM suggests, depending on what exercises he does, how many sets and reps and so on.

The high rep, low weight isolating exercises program that RRM recommends, is not the most effective, but it does not strain the whole body, only the muscle targeted and does not cause a significant raise in hormone levels.

Oke thank you for clearing that up, fictor
Eating more fish and yolks isn't an option for him... He just doesn't like it, and he likes his cooked food to much.... Unfutunately the one that exercises most is the same one that I didn't "convert" My two other brothers don't want to use supplements, and eat plenty of of raw beef, salmon and yolks, but they don't train that intensive