Vitamin B1 / thiamine

[Kasper]

Always?
Also in the case of calcium? (dissolves in water)
Selenium?

I meant with vitamin B1.

Only if you systematically ignore what your body is telling you, nutrient deficiency is going to be a problem. This is (a.o.) why we always advocate to listen to your body carefully.

Pure logic ? Your body wants to be healthy so it will ensure you keep healthy... I don't think it's that simple. Would be great though.

Do you know any publication of the absortion rates of vitamin B1 ? Or about these warning signals ?

If you ignore all those warning signals in a western diet you won't get vitamin B1 deficiencies. Because there's plenty of vitamin B1 in a western diet. Because people eat lots of bread, rice, pork, potatoes etc.

If you eat only 170 gram of pork in a day, an avarage man gets the recommanded intake.
Or if you eat only 8 slices of whole meal bread.
An avarage person in a western diet gets plenty of it.

If you ignore all those warning signals (if there are any for vitamin B1) in a Wai diet, you choose the wrong foods and don't use the nutritional calculator I think you can get quickly a lower vitamin B1 intake than the recommanded one (maybe this is better formulated )

Based on what data?

If you don't drink orange juice, and no nuts and if you get much energy from fat.

For example this one:
You eat 6 egg yolks, 100 gram olive oil and, banana:

RDA: FDA Men, 19-24yr (177cm/70in, 72kg/160lb)

Your selection:
[Item 1] 6units of Chicken egg yolk (Gallus domesticus), raw, [1],
[Item 2] 100g (grams) of Olive oil (Olea europea), [1],
[Item 3] 2000g (grams) of Banana (Musa X paradisiaca), [1].

...
Energy..................................3080.56kcal .....2900.00kcal
...
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................1.16mg ..........1.50mg
...

Your selection:
[Item 1] 6units of Chicken egg yolk (Gallus domesticus), raw, [1],
[Item 2] 100g (grams) of Olive oil (Olea europea), [1],
[Item 3] 3000g (grams) of Pear (Pyrus communis L.), no skin, [2][1].

Energy..................................2887.56kcal .....2900.00kcal
...
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................1.06mg ..........1.50mg
...
same diet with apple gives: 0.74mg vitamin B1
with kiwi: 1.03mg vitamin B1
abricot: 1.15mg vitamin B1

Or of course any combination of kiwi, apple, pear, abricot and banana..

And there will be more such combinations.

[Kasper]

I'm going on holiday now for three weeks, so I'm not able to react for three weeks in this topic.

Don't think I don't like this diet, I think it's the best diet there is, just have some doubts sometimes.

[Oscar]

I don't know, I think that everything above the nutrient recommendations should be healthy because these vitamins are water soluble..
What do you think ?

That's where the problem is. You interpret the RDA as a rock-solid, scientifically proven, for everyone always applicable number. It isn't.
There are too many factors in play to just strictly hold to this one number.

Look at vitamin C. 6.5-10 mg/day is the minimum we need, yet the RDA says 60 mg/day.

[RRM]

If you ignore all those warning signals in a western diet you won't get vitamin B1 deficiencies. Because there's plenty of vitamin B1 in a western diet. Because people eat lots of bread, rice, pork, potatoes etc.

Ehrrr, maybe you are forgetting that muslims and jews dont eat any pork at all?
This is the top 10 of vitamin B1 (in mcg per 100 g.)

1000 Brazil nuts
900 pork
500 mangosteen
450 durian
390 hazelnut
340 walnut
300 tamarind
290 egg yolk
280 macadamia nut
250 whole meal bread

So, if you leave out the pork, it gives the Wai diet still plenty of B1,
but now the western world is in danger?
Particularly so if they dont consume whole meal grains, because B1 is found mostly in
the outer layers of the grain and in the germ (removed during the refining process).

Based on what data?

If you don't drink orange juice, and no nuts and if you get much energy from fat.

Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................1.16mg ..........1.50mg
...
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................1.06mg ..........1.50mg

And you think that is too little vitamin B1?
Then muslims and jews are in danger as well...

Also, if you get more energy from fat, you need less vitamin B1 for the utilization of carbs.
And the Wai diet is low in B1-antagonists such as specific phenols (grains, veggies), caffeic acid (coffee),
chlorogenic acid (coffee, veggies), tannic acid (tea) and quercetin (tea).
Vitamin B1 transport is inhibited by alcohol.

This is yet an other recommendation:

From this site:
The Food and Nutrition Board at the Institute of Medicine recommends the following dietary intake for thiamine:
Males age 14 and older: 1.2 mg/day
Females age 19 and older: 1.1 mg/day

According to the US National Institutes of Health:

Dairy products, fruits, and vegetables are not very high in thiamine, but when consumed in large amounts, they become a significant source.

... which is what happens on the Wai diet.
Amongst poor people in India mainly living on white, polished rice, the majority of infants have low serum vitamin B1 levels.
White cooked rice contains only 20 mcg B1 / 100 g.
Most fruits contain 1.5 to 5 times as much B1 (and some much more).
And of course, we consume egg yolks and fish, and also nuts as well.

[Kasper]

And you think that is too little vitamin B1?

Tell me than, what do you think that's too little ? Less than 1 mg/day?
I just found out that people with blood group A need far more biotin than people with other blood groups.
Maybe there's something similiar with vitamin b1, I don't know. Some special persons that need really much vitamin b1.
And because for these persons they have those 1,5 mg/day. Maybe it's rare, but every individual count, right ?
I don't know, but I think it's based on something.

Also, if you get more energy from fat, you need less vitamin B1 for the utilization of carbs.

So if you eat sugar you need more vitamin b1 right ? What about adding carbohydrates without any vitamin B1 (adding sugar to fruit), which is done a lot at wai ?
Than I get even much lower numbers than these 1,16 or 1,06 mg. While you would require more..

1000 Brazil nuts
900 pork
500 mangosteen
450 durian
390 hazelnut
340 walnut
300 tamarind
290 egg yolk
280 macadamia nut
250 whole meal bread

So, if you leave out the pork, it gives the Wai diet still plenty of B1

From these wai foods, I only consume the egg yolks, but not in large quantities. I think for many this is the same.
I think the first wai-food in this list that's eaten common in large quantities on wai is orange juice, which is high in vitamin b1/carb.
But not everyone drinks orange juice, or eat oranges at wai. Most fruits have a lower vitamin b1/carb ratio than potato, bread or rice have.

Ehrrr, maybe you are forgetting that muslims and jews dont eat any pork at all?
but now the western world is in danger?

I don't think so.

Let's compare vitamin b1/carb in western (without pork) to Wai.

100 potato, cooked --> 100 mcg/20 gram carb --> 5 mcg/ gram carb
102 rice, brown, cooked 102 mcg/24 gram carb --> 4,25 mcg / gram carb
250 whole meal bread 250 mcg/ 46 gram carb --> 5,43 mcg/ gram carb
white bread 56 mcg/50 gram carb --> 1,12 mcg/ gram carb

44 banana --> 44 mcg/20 gram carb ---> 2,2 mcg/ gram carb
with kiwi, apple, pear and abricot it's lower

So, a western diet without pork is proberbly higher in vitamin b1 than a wai diet composed of kiwi, apple, pear, abricot and banana as fruit source. Even if you get 50% of your carbs from white bread and 50 % from potato you get way more vitamin b1/carb.

Particularly so if they dont consume whole meal grains, because B1 is found mostly in
the outer layers of the grain and in the germ (removed during the refining process).
....
And of course, we consume egg yolks and fish, and also nuts as well.

Where do you get your data from ? Than I can include other types of bread/rice and compare other types of meat to fish/egg yolk.

[Kasper]

And the Wai diet is low in B1-antagonists such as specific phenols (grains, veggies), caffeic acid (coffee),
chlorogenic acid (coffee, veggies), tannic acid (tea) and quercetin (tea).
Vitamin B1 transport is inhibited by alcohol.
...
And of course, we consume egg yolks and fish, and also nuts as well.

Raw fish contains thiaminase which destroys vitamin B1. So, I don't think we can count raw fish as a source vitamin B1 right ?

Because I read that raw fish can lead to vitamin B1 defiencies I think the net effect of raw fish on vitamin B1 levels is negative.

[RRM]

Raw fish contains thiaminase which destroys vitamin B1. So, I don't think we can count raw fish as a source vitamin B1 right ?

I think we can, as that depends on the level of thiaminase, dont you think?

I read that raw fish can lead to vitamin B1 defiencies

where did you read that?
(I know that rice can)

Most fruits have a lower vitamin b1/carb ratio than potato, bread or rice have.

You cannot use that ratio, as B1 is involved in much more than just carb metabolism.

a western diet without pork is proberbly higher in vitamin b1 than a wai diet composed of kiwi, apple, pear, abricot and banana as fruit source.

Maybe not, as most people eat white rice instead of whole meal rice.
vitamin B1 in mcg per 100 g.

44 banana
40 apricot
35 apple
33 pear
20 rice, polished, cooked
17 kiwi

But dont you see where we are heading?
Cherry picking and "my daddy is stronger than your daddy".
I think both daddies are doing just fine regarding B1.
Cherry picking how you can get below a certain level is not very realistic.
Not on this diet it is, as people who need a lot of carbs mostly rely on OJ,
and when they dont, they usually dont just stick to a few fruits only.

Where do you get your data from ?

Souci, SW et al, Food Composition and Nutrition Tabels, Medpharm Scientific Publishers Stuttgart,
but you can simply use the USDA database as well.

[Kasper]

where did you read that?
(I know that rice can)

Cooking the fermented fish destroyed the thiaminase activity and resulted in a significant decrease in TPP effect in the red blood cells of subjects in group II (Table 3). A further significant decrease was observed when thiamin supplement was given along with the cooked fish. There was no change in TPP effect when raw fermented fish was consumed with the thiamin supplement.

source: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/28/12/1458

You cannot use that ratio, as B1 is involved in much more than just carb metabolism.

I don't (only) use this ratio because of this.
I think this ratio is more usefull than vitamin b1/100 gram because the amount of carb in a diet is comparable when a individual eats a western diet or a wai diet.

For example I a person who needs 2000 calories eats around 300 gram carbohydrates a day.
If that person eats on average 2,2 mcg vitamin B1 /gram carb, than this will lead to 0,66 gram vitamin B1 that person get's through food high in carbohydrates.

But dont you see where we are heading?
Cherry picking and "my daddy is stronger than your daddy".
I think both daddies are doing just fine regarding B1.

No both daddies aren't doing just fine. Both daddies are doing fine in some cases, and in some cases they don't.
The differences is though that one daddy admits he isn't doing fine in some cases and tries to prevent people to be such a case.

That's why white bread and white rice with is enriched with vitamin B1 by law in the United States.

Enrichment of white rice with B1, B3, and iron is required by law in the United States.

Since 1941, however, fortification of white flour-based products with some of the nutrients lost in milling, like thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, and iron was mandated by the US government in response to the vast nutrient deficiencies seen in US military recruits at the start of World War II.[2] This fortification led to nearly universal eradication of deficiency diseases in the US, such as pellagra and beriberi (deficiencies of niacin and thamin, respectively) and white bread continues to be an important source of these key vitamins to this day.[3]

That's why it's common known that it's healthy to eat whole-wheat products and brown rice.

Cherry picking how you can get below a certain level is not very realistic.
Not on this diet it is, as people who need a lot of carbs mostly rely on OJ,
and when they dont, they usually dont just stick to a few fruits only.

I'm not talking about 'mostly', and 'usually'.
I'm talking about the cases that you need a lot of carbs and eat the whole day a salad of banana/coconut oil/added sugar because you can't stand the taste of OJ, or just like that better ...

Maybe it's not usual but I have been eating only kiwi's and banana's as fruit source for some time. Because I liked it and it was very cheap.

So, I still want to know which vitamin B1 levels you think are dangerous or which vitamin B1 levels science think are dangerous. So we can decide which "not usual" wai variations are dangerous.

But except of the dangerous part of getting too less vitamin B1, there's also something known about the positive differences about getting too much vitamin B1:

Abstract One hundred and twenty young adult females took either a placebo or 50 mg thiamine, each day for 2 months. Before and after taking the tablets, mood, memory and reaction times were monitored. An improvement in thiamine status was associated with reports of being more clearheaded, composed and energetic. The taking of thiamine had no influence on memory but reaction times were faster following supplementation. These influences took place in subjects whose thiamine status, according to the traditional criterion, was adequate.

So the least you can do is informing people about the positive differences of eating fruit high in vitamin B1.

[RRM]

I read that raw fish can lead to vitamin B1 defiencies

where did you read that?
(I know that rice can)

Cooking the fermented fish destroyed the thiaminase activity and resulted in a significant decrease in TPP effect in the red blood cells of subjects in group II (Table 3). A further significant decrease was observed when thiamin supplement was given along with the cooked fish. There was no change in TPP effect when raw fermented fish was consumed with the thiamin supplement.

In your quote there is no proof that eating raw fish can lead to vitamin B1 deficiencies.
Its about bethel nuts and raw fermented fish (which one?) and their anti B1 effect (thiamin pyrophosphate (TPP) effect).
Maybe you have a more adequate quote?

I think this ratio is more usefull than vitamin b1/100 gram because the amount of carb in a diet is comparable when a individual eats a western diet or a wai diet.

Again, its not just about carbs.
B1 is multi-functional, as most vitamins are.
Shall we stick to the accepted, normal way of measuring B1?

one daddy admits he isn't doing fine in some cases and tries to prevent people to be such a case.

Excuse me?
Can you clarify this, please?

That's why white bread and white rice with is enriched with vitamin B1 by law in the United States.

The western world comprises more countries than just the US.

I'm talking about the cases that you need a lot of carbs and eat the whole day a salad of banana/coconut oil/added sugar because you can't stand the taste of OJ, or just like that better ...

Its an unrealistic example, because if you eat that way, you will start craving for other fruits as well, containing more B1.

Maybe it's not usual but I have been eating only kiwi's and banana's as fruit source for some time.

We didnt tell you that.
We always advice people to use the nutrient calculator,
and make adaptations when required.
Good for you that you felt the need to change.

So, I still want to know which vitamin B1 levels you think are dangerous or which vitamin B1 levels science think are dangerous. So we can decide which "not usual" wai variations are dangerous.

If you follow our advice, on this diet you will always combine multiple fruits,
and thus there will be no danger.
I dont know anybody sticking to a diet of only kiwi and bananas, as its not what we advice.
I think that the vitamin B1 level of 20 mcg is too low, as consuming (little) white rice only (and i mean "only") has shown it to be.

But except of the dangerous part of getting too less vitamin B1, there's also something known about the positive differences about getting too much vitamin B1

On this diet you get plenty of B1, if you dont religiously stick to a diet of kiwi and banana only, for example.
Dont be afraid, because you will be all right when you follow this diet normally.

the least you can do is informing people about the positive differences of eating fruit high in vitamin B1.

We gave you the nutrient calculator for a reason.
We gave you the best fruit combinations for a reason.
Its not just about B1, but about many vitamins and minerals.
Focusing on B1 only doesnt help you.
You need them all, and for this you need a little variety.
Submit your version of the diet to the nutrient calculator
and when your diet is low in a certain vitamin, you use this list to up that.
Its really not that hard if you use the tools that we provide you with.

[Kasper]

In your quote there is no proof that eating raw fish can lead to vitamin B1 deficiencies.

Well, I wasn't talking about vitamin B1 deficiencies through raw fish.. I was only talking about the thiamin-antagonist it contains and that it has proberbly rather a negative effect than a positive effect on vitamin B1 levels (which you put forward)

But I don't know anything about which fishes contains thiaminase etc.. I think you know more than me after reading this:

Though raw fish contains thiaminase, which decomposes some of the vitamin B1 in fish, that doesn't matter, because one piece of fruit already contains as much vitamin B1. source:waisays

Can you proof this statement ?

Again, its not just about carbs.
B1 is multi-functional, as most vitamins are.
Shall we stick to the accepted, normal way of measuring B1?

It just give extra information above the information that measuring vitamin b1/gram gives.
Because people eat until they have ingested enough energy... not until they have eaten a certain amount of mass... right ?
Orange juice is lower in vitamin B1 than potato/ gram. But you need to drink a lot more orange jucie than potato before you have the same amount of energy. So per amount of energy orange juice is higher than potato.

one daddy admits he isn't doing fine in some cases and tries to prevent people to be such a case.

Excuse me?
Can you clarify this, please?

Well, in other words, the western world admits that through eating white rice and white bread you can get serious illness, and therefore it tries to prevents this to happen. By enriching the products, informing people etc..
Because in countries this isn't done, these serious illnesses happen (like people in asia who eat polished rice)..

Its an unrealistic example, because if you eat that way, you will start craving for other fruits as well, containing more B1.

I've asked this before, but can you proof any of these cravings/warning signals for vitamin B1 ?

I dont know anybody sticking to a diet of only kiwi and bananas, as its not what we advice.

I don't mean a diet with only kiwi and banana, I mean a diet with as fruit source only kiwi and banana. I ate also oil, fish, and egg yolks.

If you follow our advice, on this diet you will always combine multiple fruits,
and thus there will be no danger.
On this diet you get plenty of B1, if you dont religiously stick to a diet of kiwi and banana only, for example.

So you admit that a diet with kiwi and banana as fruit source has a too less vitamin B1?

Than a diet with a combination of these fruits has it too:
kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, cucumber, strawberry, cherry and banana.

Is it so unrealistic to use a combination of these fruits as fruit source in your diet?

I think that the vitamin B1 level of 20 mcg is too low, as consuming (little) white rice only (and i mean "only") has shown it to be.

I don't think they will enriche white bread with vitamin b1 if there's no need to do that...

"This fortification led to nearly universal eradication of deficiency diseases in the US, such as pellagra and beriberi (deficiencies of niacin and thamin, respectively) and white bread continues to be an important source of these key vitamins to this day." source:wikipedia

We gave you the best fruit combinations for a reason.

Why don't you give these fruit combinations on wai diet ? I think many people won't find this list otherwise.

I would like to see a link to this on this page: http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/twd-diet.html

[RRM]

As on this board one can embed only 3 quotes within each other,
i left out 2 in the following one:

I read that raw fish can lead to vitamin B1 defiencies

where did you read that? ...

Well, I wasn't talking about vitamin B1 deficiencies through raw fish..

Yes, you were.
Just read the first line (your words).

Though raw fish contains thiaminase, which decomposes some of the vitamin B1 in fish, that doesn't matter, because one piece of fruit already contains as much vitamin B1. source:waisays

Can you proof this statement ?

Sure.
100 gram of salmon (170 mcg) or tuna (160 mcg) contains little vitamin B1,
so that its easy to compensate for a partial loss by consuming the right piece of fruit.
1 orange 110 mcg B1
1 mango 120 mcg B1
1 avocado 130 mcg B1
1 muskmelon 220 mg B1
1 pineapple 420 mcg B1
1 honeydew 880 mcg B1
1 watermelon 3610 mcg B1

Well, in other words, the western world admits that through eating white rice and white bread you can get serious illness

No its not like that. You need to eat a rather radical diet to get a B1 deficiency. (diet of an an alcoholic, for example)
Not if you eat a normal diet including white rice and bread and not brown rice and bread.

Because in countries this isn't done, these serious illnesses happen (like people in asia who eat polished rice)..

Also in these countries, B1 deficiencies are not standard at all.
They mainly occur in very poor people who mainly rely on white rice for food. (and bethel nuts, for example)
Just read some of those studies.

can you proof any of these cravings/warning signals for vitamin B1 ?

No, i cannot.

So you admit that a diet with kiwi and banana as fruit source has a too less vitamin B1?

You mean as a fruit source or as the only fruit source?
The latter would be unrealistic, of course.
But nevertheless, it may be sufficient.
A 20 yr old man may need about 3000 kcal.
For this he would have to consume 6 egg yolks, 20 bananas and 10 kiwis.
This would yield 1570 mcg B1, which is more than enough.

Again, we dont advice this, as this diet would lack other nutrients.

I don't think they will enriche white bread with vitamin b1 if there's no need to do that...

So, all countries where they dont, they are just fools, right?

Why don't you give these fruit combinations on wai diet ?

Because the calculator is more efficient, as here you can check out any combination that you fancy.
Its automated.

[RRM]

I would reccomand people to add vitamin B1 rich fruit, such as orange juice, in their diet

I have shown you that even when you eat kiwis, bananas and egg yolks only,
you still ingest all the B1 that you need, so that you certainly dont need extra B1.
Your recommendation is therefore without ground.

[Kasper]

Of course we gladly want you to question the rationale behind this diet.
And of course everybody is entitled to have deviating opinions.
But if you want to promote a deviating opinion of your own, please do that in this forum.

Okay, you can move/split this topic to that forum than.
Or do you want me to open a new one ?

The diet you suggested is extremely low in fat. Its carb/fat ratio is 14.7:1
If you add some oil, you will get a diet like this:
13 banana, 6 kiwi, 100 gram oil, 6 egg yolks (carb/fat ratio is 3:1)
This will result to 1.08 mg of vitamin B1 and don't even reach the traditional criterion.
And what about a person who needs 2000 kcal ?
8 banana, 4 kiwi, 6 egg yolks, 70 gram oil: 0,74 mg vitamin B1

[RRM]

Of course we gladly want you to question the rationale behind this diet.
And of course everybody is entitled to have deviating opinions.
But if you want to promote a deviating opinion of your own, please do that in this forum.

Okay, you can move/split this topic to that forum than.
Or do you want me to open a new one ?

For questioning how much B1 this diet contains, this thread is perfect.
For promoting extra or supplementary B1 (or whatever vitamin) i have split this topic.

Besides this, the diet you suggested is extremely low in fat. Its carb/fat ratio is 14.7:1

Actually, i didnt suggest that diet.
I did the opposite, remember?
Though regarding fat versus sugar, it may be perfectly ok.
The more physically active you are, the more carbs you need relatively to fat.

[Kasper]

For questioning how much B1 this diet contains, this thread is perfect.
For promoting extra or supplementary B1 (or whatever vitamin) i have split this topic.

I don't promote supplementary B1, I promote dietary vitamin B1 (through orange juice, or pineapple etc.)

Besides this, the diet you suggested is extremely low in fat. Its carb/fat ratio is 14.7:1

Actually, i didnt suggest that diet.
I did the opposite, remember?
Though regarding fat versus sugar, it may be perfectly ok.
The more physically active you are, the more carbs you need relatively to fat.

Well, it might be that I had to use the word 'put forward', or just 'post'.

The point was, that you claimed that you showed me that even an diet with only kiwi/banana/egg yolk gives enough vitamin B1. So that I had no ground to recommend people to add orange juice to their diet.
The diet you put forward might be perfectly ok regarding fat versus sugar, but let's be honest, even you put oil in your diet, while I think you are the most physically active person in this forum. So I think a fruit/oil/animal food diet is much more common than a fruit/animal food diet.

Let's calculate for a diet with 6 egg yolks /fruit/oil for a person who needs 2000 kcal, fat/carb 2:1
6 egg yolk gives you 18 gram protein
6 egg yolks gives you 30 gram fat

A person who needs 2000 kcal with fat/sugar 1:2, will rougly add 80 gram fat through oil and 230 gram carbohydrate through fruit.
Adding 650 gram banana, 600 gram kiwi, gives you:

Energy..................................2071.96kcal
Carbohydrate..........................242.02g
Fat......................................121.98g
Protein.................................30.22g
Vitamin B1, Thiamin..................0.67mg 45% of RDA

So this egg yolk/kiwi/banana/oil diet gets 45 % of RDA for vitamin B1
A diet composed of these fruits:
kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, cherry and banana. (any maybe others )
should have quiet the same B1 values. This is, because those fruits give similar or lower B1 values per energy content.

So for a person who needs 2000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, and eats 6 egg yolks as animal food, should get around 45 % of RDA for B1 if he/she only consumes these fruits in her diet:
kiwi, apple, pear, abricot, raisin, dates, strawberry, banana

A person who needs 3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2 and eats 10 egg yolks as animal food, 110 gram oil, get with those mentioned fruits:

Energy..................................3017.00kcal ......650.00kcal
Carbohydrate.............................333.26g ..............?g
Fat......................................164.64g ..............?g
Protein...................................47.07g ..........13.00g
Vitamin B1, Thiamin........................1.01mg 66% RDA

So for a person who needs between 2000/3000 kcal, fat/carb 1:2, I would recommend to add some vitamin B1 rich fruit such as orange juice and pineapple.