The Long Journey

[panacea]

you are on a year(s) long journey to discover what works
maybe it will be one year, or more years than your lifespan allow..
I suggest dropping all efforts into things that contain the word "quantum", for a start

.

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<EDIT by RRM>This thread was split off from this thread about POO</EDIT by RRM>

[Novidez]

you are on a year(s) long journey to discover what works
maybe it will be one year, or more years than your lifespan allow..

That kinda scared me somehow xD. My lifespan or I would say firstly the society around me :S

I suggest dropping all efforts into things that contain the word "quantum", for a start

Ahah, why? Well, she uses that quantum/biofeedback machine, I guess this would be kinda of an 'insult' for you. Are chakras, meditation, acupuncture, holistic health, homeopathy, orthomolecular, integrative medicine also included in that word 'dropping' list?

However, she taught me a lot of things since her main area is biochemistry. And I am thankful to her because she help me to get rid of the Psychiatrist / Psychologist cycle that I have been for 10 years.

[panacea]

I just meant that some people never learn from their mistakes (very slow learners, which die before they learn)

Quantum doesn't apply to any type of health aspect at all, it's a buzz word which is used to make you feel like something is powerful or esoteric, without actually having a foundation for being so

[panacea]

I should clarify:
A person who calls themselves a quantum therapy doctor, may be entirely right in all of their advice,
but since the first word in their name is a term which is meant to trick you, or have no substance, then it's far more likely they don't have a lot of wisdom in that field, or worse, they have a few good ideas mixed with a few bad ideas, which can fool people even better into thinking they have a lot of wisdom in that field

chakras are not as empty as quantum in terms of health, but i would consider it BS, it might be working on some actual principle that is already known, or yet to be discovered, but the BS it is covered with is to me, most certainly just BS, so statistically it's not a "good bet", not by a long shot. that's how I judge things, since I've been wrong so many times, it's all probabilities

biofeedback is great stuff, but to my knowledge, hasn't had technological applications for the general public in any useful sense yet. people who practice dancing in front of mirrors tend to accelerate their learning curve - biofeedback, but without the EEGs..

the rest of the terms, except for orthomolecular which I've never heard of, seem normal to me, but dont exactly emanate truthiness to my mind..
meditation is probably the most useful one to me, even though I just call that "thinking", I guess the rest of the world needs a special time to do it in?

[panacea]

Also a psychiatrist/psychologist cycle doesnt make sense to me. One works in therapy, the other works in a lab. I consider medicated psychiatry as a 99% fraud business model (not intentionally from the therapists end). Psychologists are a great service to the world though, not sure how you go from one to the other.

EDIT: after googling these terms, I guess my definitions are out of date. I was taught psychologists worked with rats in labs, or did research, and psychiatrists were therapists, often with pills to offer.

Turns out psychologists still don't medicate, which is great, but they can talk directly to patients needing mental help, so I guess they are the drug free form of psychiatrists. So my position stands - pat on the back for psychologists, may psychiatry die as civilization progresses..

[Novidez]

But meditation is probably the most useful one to me, even though I just call that "thinking"

But meditation is the exact opposite of thinking. I mean, if you try to stop thinking you will recognize that is quite (very!) hard. In meditation, you start to be aware how your mind operates and how your thoughts control you. And when you think that your are not thinking, you are actually thinking. The mind is very tricky.

I consider medicated psychiatry as a 99% fraud business model (not intentionally from the therapists end).

If I start the list of medications I have already taken, it never ends ... The 'funny' part is that when I left my psychiastrist I told him how happy I am now and how I got interested in nutrition and the importance of food, which he replied: "Hmm, that's usually the initial sign of anorexia". Come on... Always searching for a disease xD

EDIT: after googling these terms, I guess my definitions are out of date. I was taught psychologists worked with rats in labs, or did research, and psychiatrists were therapists, often with pills to offer.

Turns out psychologists still don't medicate, which is great, but they can talk directly to patients needing mental help, so I guess they are the drug free form of psychiatrists. So my position stands - pat on the back for psychologists, may psychiatry die as civilization progresses..

Ahah, yeah, that's how psychologists work. I can say that I have learned a lot from them. They basically interpret the mind, try to re-educate you and question you about your life, about some useless and disfunctional habits you have. But, then I found spiritualism/enlightenment content. And, man, it's basically the same thing but much more deep and on another level (in my opinion). And here, it doesn't make you feel that you have a disease or that you are not 'normal', which happens on a psychologist where you labeled since the beginning.

[panacea]

Over a decade ago I was also involved with psychiatry (forced upon me by my parents, as I was a child), I know how they operate. They would question me for a single half-hour and at the end, have some idea of a drug for me to fix my brain imbalances... I only improved when I quit the meds and therapy cold-turkey out of frustration that nothing was working (had to violently protest to parents at the time), and started my long journey into helping myself through internet research.

While what you said on meditation is interesting, some food for thought is that the brain while conscious cannot stop thinking, and while unconscious often thinks as well, since thoughts happen automatically in sensory deprivation chambers, and during sleep (dreams). Everyone dreams every time they sleep, but not everyone *remembers* them. During sleep or not, the mental imagery process we call thinking still happens. Also, on a more psychological level, the phrase 43584358345783454543545 4534534956746748 94540584534 may not produce a mental image in your head, but "A big bear attacked a little girl" does produce an image in your head, if you understand English. It can happen extremely fast, such as if you're a speed reader -- so fast you don't consciously see the big bear or little girl in your mind, just understand the sentence, but the mental images did occur in your brain, in order to make sense of the concepts (the symbols of "big bear" and "little girl" are letters, your brain translates them to images). Some people with great memories have very vivid and easily recognizable visualizations in their head moment-to-moment as they read, or listen to someone, etc, others are unaware of the mental imagery process as it's more faded and not as vivid, but every functional person does it. Similarly, our brains are constantly "seeing things" when our eyes are open, and there are even stimuli when our eyes are closed (such as when we're dreaming) that stimulate thoughts to happen. Most likely people who meditate are either doing some kind of mental relaxation exercise, or trying to prevent some bad thoughts from occuring (a type of relaxation), or just doing it because they like the idea of meditation. Personally, I think you can get all of the benefits of meditation every waking hour without meditating, just by adopting a neutral worldview such as determinism. Then, there is no such thing as power, blame, evil, good, etc. that humans emotionally frustrate over.

[Novidez]

Over a decade ago I was also involved with psychiatry (forced upon me by my parents, as I was a child), I know how they operate. They would question me for a single half-hour and at the end, have some idea of a drug for me to fix my brain imbalances... I only improved when I quit the meds and therapy cold-turkey out of frustration that nothing was working (had to violently protest to parents at the time), and started my long journey into helping myself through internet research.

You know? I actually did the same thing the last year... I was taking clomipramine for 5 years and my life was always frustrating, depressing, before falling asleep my last thoughts were always 'how to put an end in my life'. Then I quitted by myself on cold-turkey too. I felt very happy on the next couple weeks, but then I fell... Unlike you, I didn't start searching on the internet another way to feel better. I just tried on my own and I couldn't keep it up for long time... Then, once again, I started to take pills.

Personally, I think you can get all of the benefits of meditation every waking hour without meditating, just by adopting a neutral worldview such as determinism.

Well, what you described there is the exact definition of being spiritual enlightned/awakened. The point of meditation is not to do it only 40 minutes and then live the rest of the day 'not-meditating'. That's the first common mistake of people who start meditation because they think that those minutes/hours will do the work. As like as Buteyko method, the point is not doing only a couple minutes everyday, but rather doing it the whole day, that's what makes the difference. I can also regnonize how strong are the thoughts in my head because they even disturb me breathing pattern.

Then, there is no such thing as power, blame, evil, good, etc. that humans emotionally frustrate over.

What you said, and I think you can agree with me, is that is very hard in this competitive, mad world. The human mind, or rather the Ego is so strong that completely possess all people: it is always searching things to compare to feel better or, can also happens who has a very weak ego, keep searching for things that make you feel bad and depressed. And you live your life always regarding things of the past, with dellusions, beliefs in your mind and also thinking about the future and that happiness is something that will happen in the future, not now, because the mind dispise the Now.

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true... that is how they define reality. But what does it mean to be correct or true? Merely vague concepts... their reality may all be an illusion."

[panacea]

I'd say it can be very hard to get control over your emotions, but if you already have control over your emotions, raising a child to have control over their emotions is extremely easy. The monks and people like that who train children from a young age generally have no problem teaching the child. I don't really like how they teach though because it's more along the lines of "take my word for it, there is no ego". I like explanations, logic, reasoning behind what I believe. Those spiritual people know what they should believe in order to inspire peace in a person, but they don't have the scientific understanding of why it's true. It may take longer to teach a child the scientific part, rather than have them blindly have faith in some peaceful worldview/perspective, but the rational explanations also makes the belief stronger. The only way I'd ever lose my belief in the neutrality of the universe is if I had memory loss, physical brain damage, etc. There's no argument that can shake the resolve of thousands of inter-connected patterns that all point to the same inescapable conclusion.
It would be a piece of cake for me to realize that a serial killer, for instance, who killed my future beloved child after raping them is, fundamentally, an innocent person programmed by society and their environment as a whole. That would take about 2 seconds to realize. I would probably feel a lot of pain losing the child, and I'd probably have thoughts of revenge/vengeance, like anyone would, but not because killing the person would be the right thing to do, not because they are evil or deserve it, it would just make me feel a little better to do that, in a futile way just like indulging in junk food. That removes most of the premeditated motive or drive to seek revenge, I might feel like getting revenge for a short while, but not long enough to act on it. If the entire world realized that, then a chain of events would unfold which, in the end, created a world where there was virtually no serial killers created in the first place, indirectly and counter-intuitively solving that problem before it even happens for future generations. It would also solve countless other problems either completely or to a very large extent.
If your life is stressful, and if you are older than about 14, then it's going to be pretty hard to unravel your thinking and let go of negative emotions, basically you have to be extremely diligent about finding out the truth of things, make it more important than anything else, and eventually you'll get there naturally in a way that cant be taken away from you by other people (but maybe old age and dementia will, haha)

[Novidez]

I like explanations, logic, reasoning behind what I believe. Those spiritual people know what they should believe in order to inspire peace in a person, but they don't have the scientific understanding of why it's true. It may take longer to teach a child the scientific part, rather than have them blindly have faith in some peaceful worldview/perspective, but the rational explanations also makes the belief stronger. The only way I'd ever lose my belief in the neutrality of the universe is if I had memory loss, physical brain damage, etc.

Basically, if that happened to you, you would be what they call 'enlightned'. Mainly because you wouldn't have identity, beliefs, past, emotion garbage,... In other words, for example, you wouldn't judge as evil if you saw a person that has murdered a family or you wouldn't judge as good either someone who has saved a child. Your instincts would probably be more pure since you were not influenced by the mind patterns. And when the mind gets in, you will find polarities: good vs bad, sadness vs happiness, right vs wrong, etc. As long this exists, people will fight for their own reality and for what they believe. So peace will never be attainable and wars appear. Because after all, what really is to be good or bad? It's simply a judgment about you have retained from the past, a history that you heard or lived, but is that really the truth? Knowing things scientifically has its purposes, but when you start becoming identified with your opinions and arguing(/fighting) with someone that has other opinion, it's because of this wars will continue to exist. Because even if you want to understand life rationally, you will end in a black hole, because there's no certainty about it. Only theories. Believing them makes you feel better, of course, but I repeat, are they real the truth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYD7Y9CXeUw - I found this Ted Talk very interesting when I saw it.

It would be a piece of cake for me to realize that a serial killer, for instance, who killed my future beloved child after raping them is, fundamentally, an innocent person programmed by society and their environment as a whole.

And you? Aren't you programmed by society either?

If your life is stressful, and if you are older than about 14, then it's going to be pretty hard to unravel your thinking and let go of negative emotions, basically you have to be extremely diligent about finding out the truth of things, make it more important than anything else, and eventually you'll get there naturally in a way that cant be taken away from you by other people (but maybe old age and dementia will, haha)

A person like that is a constant seeker: searching for answers in the future according to his past. He is always waiting for the moment to find the truth, a reason to live. And, what will probably happen, is that this person will live his life in a sad way. Because death happens for sure, and if your answers (happiness) depends on the future, then maybe, in the moment of your death, you would be like "Damn it, I can't die now, tomorrow I had a plan to finally find the meaning of life. I have also already bookmarked a flight to Japan. Hey Death, can't you wait a bit longer?"

Well, this conversation has tended a bit to be off topic. I only started writing here, because in my diary I am writing my experiences one day after . And I wanted to call some attention about this subject on this thread only, and not gathering it with my diet plan. Maybe I will continue my poop sharing there xD

[panacea]

@Novidez yes, I and the rest of the universe are shaped by the environment, whether that environment be people, gravity fields, etc. We are totally at the mercy of that environment, even though we have a very persistent illusion of self control/free will, much like the illusion of vision - what we see is not reality it's a fragment of it, but unless you look that up scientifically, you will probably believe you see all of reality as it's a very convincing illusion.
Life is analogous to a rollercoaster ride in the dark that never ends until you die, it's a fixed track, and you may be able to anticipate short bits of the track in the future, but you can never see the whole track, so life is surprising and mysterious in that way. When someone has "control" over their emotions, they simply have had enough stimuli that shaped them that way, which makes them more resilient to emotional stresses. While you cannot choose that path out of free will, you can be affected by stimuli (such as my words) which allow you to investigate it, or not. It's complicated to speak in these terms for any length, but that is how all our 'decisions' really work. For the sake of being concise, we tend to use words like "make yourself" or "will yourself" into paying attention or doing something, but in the back of your mind, you should know it's really the environment presenting a stimulus, and you are reacting to it strongly, or weakly, in varying degrees, or not reacting much at all, depending on the quality of the stimulus to your unique mind (shaped by a unique set of experiences).
So it's very true that the "first step" is the hardest, because it requires quite a bit of luck in your history in order to be perceptive to such an idea. However, part of the reason I spent the effort to write it to you, is because based on your writing I predicted/projected a likelihood that you are impressionable in that way. Someone who was yelling in all caps about the power of god and how all sinners should repent, or all infidels be decapitated, would not have warranted these responses from me. Obvious stuff on the surface, but infinitely complex when you try to imagine all the possible factors influencing our behavior.

I investigated this stuff because I wasn't happy with my previous Baptist/Christian/Traditional world view impressed upon me by my family and culture, there was a lot of confusion and frustration, but knowing what I know now, if I was dying, I would be immensely sad about not seeing the future out of curiosity, but I would not regret the way I lived, which is all that really matters to me during the dying stage, since not too far from that I will have no worries at all.

Death is still not something I am looking forward to, but rather than fear it, it's become an immense comfort. I know that all the struggles of life can be terminated at any moment if I choose, and my curiosity in life is what keeps me persisting on. If life was not beautiful and rewarding to me in the long and short term, I have a way out that will give infinite peace and serenity - death (I don't believe in afterlife). Even if you live 1 billion years, the same is true.

[Aytundra]

Poo-ey topic, it is nice that the poo is in the poo forum.
Here is the irony of the thread here: Freud would be impressed.

Anyways I came to say, do things not because of authority, not because of someone else's suffering, not because of someone else's niceness. Do things because you know it is the right thing to do and that it comes from yourself.

A little lamp shines light on a desktop, shines light on the walls, and on the bookshelf. It catches light on the window and sees it's own reflection. It sees the stars at night, and wonders what they see from afar. It sees the lamp post outside, and thinks how wonderful it is that the lamp post can make such a big area shine, to light the side walk, to light the cars, to light the lovers sitting on a bench in the shrubs. It wonders what purpose it be that it is just in a small room to glow, with very little watts.

Later that evening a human came by, the human unfolded their newspaper and read.
Another human carried a laptop and sat on the carpet next to the pool of light.
When late evening came, a small human came by and took the lamp to beneath the table top.
The small human twisted and pulled the springy arms of the lamp's metal, moving the lamp here and there.
Another small human came by: "let's play camping", "let's make shadows." "I made a wolf". "see the bird fly.", 'it's your hands.", "hey, my dog barks."
Holding transparent plastic plates of different colours, the other small human made colours on the wall: "it is a stage", "look I am acting"..."I made green, if hold yellow and blue plates.", "you hold red, let's see what happen when we put all three plates together."
It watched with amusement as the evening unfolded, it thought to itself, though every bit of it was subject to the environment and it did not like being handled so roughly to twist in different directions. It realized, it was important, though it's area was small, the pool of light just like a splash of circular rug on the floor, the soft glow. It became content that it too can make joy for it's environment, or rather it just is being itself is all that matters, and others can find joy by it's presence. It need not be high up in the air like the stars. It need not be big or reach roads too far. It is just is at the right place and time. It need not be stronger in watts, or it might be too strong for those little humans to play. It is it, it does not have to be anything else.

[Novidez]

So it's very true that the "first step" is the hardest, because it requires quite a bit of luck in your history in order to be perceptive to such an idea.

True... It's interesting when a person is completely identified with his job, with his family, house, lover, etc, and when they lose them, they suddenly feel that they don't know who they are anymore. All their life was that story, that identification. Then, if it collapses they feel lost and they can either victimize themselves or have that "first step", seeing that life is much more than a simply story. Life is not a race, or a mission, or a point that you want to reach to be 'perfect', but I think people usually see it like that (me also... I have been a pro thinking this way all my life.): "I want to do; I want to become; I will have;...". This is, "when I have achieved all my objectives, now I will be happy and I can even die freely: I have done my job."

However, part of the reason I spent the effort to write it to you, is because based on your writing I predicted/projected a likelihood that you are impressionable in that way. Someone who was yelling in all caps about the power of god and how all sinners should repent, or all infidels be decapitated, would not have warranted these responses from me. Obvious stuff on the surface, but infinitely complex when you try to imagine all the possible factors influencing our behavior.

Now you made me blush with those words ahah.
But seriously, as you can imagine, I feel honestly grateful to have this opportunity to talk about this with someone. I mean, it's really hard to get this 'deep' on a conversation. If I start a conversation like this with someone else near me, it would not be a conversation at all and they would actually point a finger on me. People avoid to talk about this because sometimes there is no answer. Therefore they are afraid to talk, they don't want to feel lost, to talk about the unknown, so it's easier to just avoid it. They want to have an answer, an opinion for everything. On this subject, in its real depths, there's none. That's why I would be much more sucessful on a group of people if I started to talk about football or politics or something else because these are shallow subjects where you can identify with some idea/opinion that you believe it's true.

I investigated this stuff because I wasn't happy with my previous Baptist/Christian/Traditional world view impressed upon me by my family and culture, there was a lot of confusion and frustration, but knowing what I know now, if I was dying, I would be immensely sad about not seeing the future out of curiosity, but I would not regret the way I lived, which is all that really matters to me during the dying stage, since not too far from that I will have no worries at all.

Well, on this matter, I really don't have an opinion because I was not baptized and religions neve interested me. But that tradition that you have to be baptized and the way it is done as a tradition.. meh... :S

Even if you live 1 billion years, the same is true.

You have said a great thing right here (if I interpreted it correctly). It's interesting how people want to live more and more years. I mean, if you created a pill that would extend lifespan for more 100 years, people in general would want to take that pill for sure. But the real question is: for what? To extend their mission? People want to live more just have more numbers, to absorb more things in their life. But still, for what? (Now that I think about it, It actually would be funny to give a pill like this to someone who was nearly dead but he felt at 'peace' because he has "accomplished" his journey. I imagine him saying something like "Ow man, now I have to life more 100 years? I've already done my job here!". Paradoxically, that's what I find even more interesting, the fact there also would be people that didn't want to take that pill, because they want to die. I mean, seriously, there's some weird thing right here.

Poo-ey topic, it is nice that the poo is in the poo forum.
Here is the irony of the thread here: Freud would be impressed.

Ahah, that would probably be true!

Do things because you know it is the right thing to do and that it comes from yourself.

Well, when you are saying "the right thing to do" you are impliying that there's also the opposite: a wrong thing to do. However, I know what you are saying. The terminology of words is what can mess the message

A little lamp shines light on a desktop, shines light on the walls, and on the bookshelf. It catches light on the window and sees it's own reflection. It sees the stars at night, and wonders what they see from afar. It sees the lamp post outside, and thinks how wonderful it is that the lamp post can make such a big area shine, to light the side walk, to light the cars, to light the lovers sitting on a bench in the shrubs. It wonders what purpose it be that it is just in a small room to glow, with very little watts.

Later that evening a human came by, the human unfolded their newspaper and read.
Another human carried a laptop and sat on the carpet next to the pool of light.
When late evening came, a small human came by and took the lamp to beneath the table top.
The small human twisted and pulled the springy arms of the lamp's metal, moving the lamp here and there.
Another small human came by: "let's play camping", "let's make shadows." "I made a wolf". "see the bird fly.", 'it's your hands.", "hey, my dog barks."
Holding transparent plastic plates of different colours, the other small human made colours on the wall: "it is a stage", "look I am acting"..."I made green, if hold yellow and blue plates.", "you hold red, let's see what happen when we put all three plates together."
It watched with amusement as the evening unfolded, it thought to itself, though every bit of it was subject to the environment and it did not like being handled so roughly to twist in different directions. It realized, it was important, though it's area was small, the pool of light just like a splash of circular rug on the floor, the soft glow. It became content that it too can make joy for it's environment, or rather it just is being itself is all that matters, and others can find joy by it's presence. It need not be high up in the air like the stars. It need not be big or reach roads too far. It is just is at the right place and time. It need not be stronger in watts, or it might be too strong for those little humans to play. It is it, it does not have to be anything else.

Yes... That's it. You made me remind how many times I do the route home - college, college - home, and only on the other day I've realized that birds sing as I walk by. That feeling that every moment, anything that seems so minimal, it's actually so huge.

[panacea]

People who are old and tired are that way mostly because they feel worn down. If they had a 20 year old body again they would most likely want to live longer, just because there's an infinite amount of curiosity out there, new passions and things. I could spend half a year making my own videogame, a virtual world, and a million years making two million games, or a really big one. Basically you never run out of things to do.

To a housefly, we live a very long time, that doesn't mean an ordinary housefly, if sentient, would think we are living far too long. In the same way, living as a human for a billion years or longer has nothing inherently good or bad about it. I'd love to live a lot longer in human form, and even longer as a cyborg or advanced AI/machine. At some point in thousands of years, we would all get so advanced in wisdom we would realize our current goals or dreams are pointless, and would either radically change, or would have to implement safeguards in order to stay "delightfully ignorant" but not so ignorant to be savages or brutal like the world we live in today. Most likely we won't have to worry about such decisions, but future generations certainly will. If we kept progressing without any safeguards, we would most likely not recognize our future selves, all the things we feel now such as guilt, or flattery, like with blushing, or love, or laughter, will most likely not exist. Probably the ultimate goal will be understanding more and more, as gaining infinite power will soon be trivial, but all-encompassing knowledge is an unattainable task.

[RRM]

People who are old and tired are that way mostly because they feel worn down. If they had a 20 year old body again they would most likely want to live longer, just because there's an infinite amount of curiosity out there, new passions and things.

I dont know.
My experience with very old people is that they are not curious anymore because they have 'seen everything' already. At least 'everything' that matters most in life. From an emotional aspect, all new inventions are just repetitions of previous inventions. They went through great changes already. They have witnessed the excitment of new things, which became normal, and then outdated. They have seen wars, witnessed so many deaths. They have seen so many young people grow older, die in accidents, of sickness, in war, or simply of old age. They have known happyness and great joy, and sadness and pain. They have lost many people that they loved, seen good things come to an end. They are tired of all the emotions they went through. Of the never ending cycle of birth and death, joy and sadness, excitement and boredom, hope and disenchantment, love and loss.
They had it all. They lost it all. They do not want to go through all that yet again. They had enough.

Similarly, i would not want to go through puberty again. I would not want to go through high school and university again. I have learned too much to go through that exact same learning stage again. And as you do not want to go back, you only want to go forward. Going forward means gaining more wisdom. And the more wisdom you garner, the more emotions you experience, the more satisfied you will become. You will come to understand the meaning of life. And once you know what really matters in life, and you have had your truckload full of it, you dont need any more. At a certain point, it will be enough. All new developments, findings and discoveries will be nothing more than a tiny wrinkle in the ocean of time. A grain of sand in an endless dessert. Meaningless in comparison to the only thing what really matters in life: the cycle of love and loss.
Once satisfied, it is enough.